Has it all been said?

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The story writer in me, I s'pose. Except that the signs are already there in terms of the waning of Western culture as opposed to African or Asian ones.

I'm not sure its possible to define 'western culture' precisely enough to be able to say its waning. Certainly its changing, but its as likely as not to be changing in a 'western' way into another phase of 'western' culture. Change is inevitable in any case, & to be welcomed if only because the alternative is stagnation. Besides, if 'Western Culture' does disappear it will be because it wasn't going anywhere, & couldn't adapt.

Originally Posted by Bb

So, part of this development of fantasy was concurrent with the rediscovery--perhaps it can even be said, discovery--of pre-Christian culture on the British Isles--the recognition of so very many regional dialects, the recovery--yes, that is the better word, recovery--of pagan legends, stories, myths. Perhaps this is why Tolkien so strongly wished to present his Legendarium as a history--part of the zeitgeist of his times, at least pre-WWI.

I still think its significant that at the same time as we see this rise in the popularity of fantasy as a genre we see the rise in interest in 'practical' occultism, with its focus on the 'Hidden Masters' in the Himalayas (via Madame Blavatsky & the Theosophists) & Ancient Egypt (The Golden Dawn/Aleister Crowley). We saw the same thing in the Renaissance, with the romances (so effectively attacked by Cervantes) of Ariosto, Boiardo, Spenser, et al, appearing at the same time as the rise of Hermeticism & Alchemy. As Lalwende mentioned the sixties also saw a resurgence in interest in both fantasy literature (principally Tolkien) & in both Western (Tarot, Crowley, Witchcraft) & Eastern (who remembers the Beatle's & the Maharishi?) 'occultism'. And currently we have both a fascination with fantastical fiction & movies alongside the rise of 'New Age' movements - Wicca, Druidism, meditation.

In short, this connection between interest in fantastical fiction seems to go hand in hand with an interest in the 'occult'. I suppose it could be argued that they arise from the same place in the human psyche, the former attempting to create secondary worlds, the latter attempting to change the primary world into something more 'magical'. Both seem to be inspired by a reaction to an overly materialistic weltanschaaung. Back to Nietzsche, with his Dionysian/Apollonian dichotomy, perhaps...

[drigel]

drigel: About our biographical sources: Carpenter's book is a marvellous read, but as readers of biographies know, there can be many versions of biographies...... Sussing out a writer's character is about as definitive a project as determining canonicity.

, and it is very highly possible that letters remain in the hands of heirs of recipients, or trapped in pages of books sold second hand, stashed away in back files of libraries in England, that kind of thing. I also read somewhere--and can't recall now where--that Tolkien left a diary, which is unpublished by will of the Tolkien Estate.

I agree on points, but - again barring something extraordinary coming to the surface (and I did enjoy Carter's biography), additional biographies, especially lately are only putting a different spin to already known information. Interesting for some I suppose, but IMO the impact in terms of my own opinion about the character of Tolkien as a writer are ... eh, negligible. Bringing up the Letters was my attempt to show the comprehensive evidence a reader has had for decades in forming their own ideas. I suppose, other than what I referenced in my 1st post and what you had alluded to - additional material, letters or diary - (and what a gem that would be!! talk about the Tolkien Rosetta stone wowsa) thats all I need as an informed reader. Anything else for me tends to devolve into minutia or bald profiteering. And, as for a peice of work that does have a unique point that gets across cogently, well, it seems to me that they are few and far between these days.

Except that the signs are already there in terms of the waning of Western culture as opposed to African or Asian ones.

I'm not sure its possible to define 'western culture' precisely enough to be able to say its waning.

ebbs and tides. It sure looked a lot more bleak when Rome fell, but we did OK, didnt we? I dont see any mass migrations to Africa or Asia by Europeans. Rather the opposite...

[davem]

I agree on points, but - again barring something extraordinary coming to the surface (and I did enjoy Carter's biography), additional biographies, especially lately are only putting a different spin to already known information.

John Garth's biography Tolkien & the Great War is a major work, & sheds important new light on Tolkien's creation, & on the man himself & his early motivations. This sample entry from the forthcoming Tolkien Encyclopedia has more information on Tolkien &WWI than Carpenter's Biography.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

I still think its significant that at the same time as we see this rise in the popularity of fantasy as a genre we see the rise in interest in 'practical' occultism, with its focus on the 'Hidden Masters' in the Himalayas (via Madame Blavatsky & the Theosophists) & Ancient Egypt (The Golden Dawn/Aleister Crowley). We saw the same thing in the Renaissance, with the romances (so effectively attacked by Cervantes) of Ariosto, Boiardo, Spenser, et al, appearing at the same time as the rise of Hermeticism & Alchemy. As Lalwende mentioned the sixties also saw a resurgence in interest in both fantasy literature (principally Tolkien) & in both Western (Tarot, Crowley, Witchcraft) & Eastern (who remembers the Beatle's & the Maharishi?) 'occultism'. And currently we have both a fascination with fantastical fiction & movies alongside the rise of 'New Age' movements - Wicca, Druidism, meditation.

In short, this connection between interest in fantastical fiction seems to go hand in hand with an interest in the 'occult'. I suppose it could be argued that they arise from the same place in the human psyche, the former attempting to create secondary worlds, the latter attempting to change the primary world into something more 'magical'. Both seem to be inspired by a reaction to an overly materialistic weltanschaaung. Back to Nietzsche, with his Dionysian/Apollonian dichotomy, perhaps...

That's Jack Nietzsche, right, the former sound engineer for the Rolling Stones?

I don't discount yours or Lal's observation at all as a correlation. However, such religious outpourings are not the sole perogative of post-18C materialism and rationalism. You might find some interest in Ronald Arbuthnott Knox's history of religious enthusiasm, called, not surprisingly, Enthusiasm.

He was a contemporary of Tolkien, a Catholic chaplain at Oxford, converted to Catholicism under the influence of he formerly recognised in your signature, Chesterton, dabbled in satire (his BBC radio hoax on revolution in London might have influenced H.G. Wells), and, even more interestingly, wrote not fantasy but detective fiction.

Knox's Essays in Satire, especially "Studies in the Literature of Sherlock Holmes", is said to be a satire on current trends in literary scholarship. Perhaps another reason to recommend him to you, although I've not read that one.

I'm not ascribing to his point of view, just noting that there is quite a history of occultish outcropings in western culture. I wonder if literature or art forms can be associated with all or many of them.