Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

[Aiwendil]

BL-RG-09: "Ea" and "Arda" are just about the same in terms of metre, I think (both are two syllables, stressed on the first). Is Manwe ever called "Lord of Ea"? I suppose it's a valid title, in any case, as Iluvatar dwells outside Ea.

BL-RG-11.5: I think this proposal is good.

BL-SL-03: Dropping the lines is a good solution, unless some better emendation can be found.

BL-EX-09: It has just occurred to me that I may be pronouncing "Edrahil" incorrectly (I must admit that Elvish stress-patterns are not one of my strong points). Is it stressed on the first or the second syllable? If it's the latter, then your original suggestion is perfectly good.

[Findegil]

BL-RG-09:

"Ea" and "Arda" are just about the same in terms of metre, I think (both are two syllables, stressed on the first). Is Manwe ever called "Lord of Ea"?

If it is metricaly the same I suppose "Arda" the more commen title and I do not find any mention of Manwë as Lord of Eä.

BL-EX-09: Sorry, but I have no idea at all how Edrahil is pronounced correctly in elvish. I pronounced it just out of the blue on the first syllable, but if that is correct I do not know.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

As I promised I made the research for the death of Sauron. Here is what I found, to have any significance to the question:

QS36; draft text B:

Then lest he be forced from the body unwillingly, which is a dire pain to such spirits, he yielded himself. And Luthien and Huan wrested from him the keys of the tower, and the spell that bound stone to stone.

Sil77:

But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe by the throat and pinned him down. Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly. Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, and said that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'
Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Tar-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror.

GA:

But Huan slew Draugluin, and when Sauron himself came forth in wolf-hame he overthrew him. Thus Sauron was constrained to yield up Tol-sirion, ere bereft of his bodily form he passed away as a black shadow into Taur-nu-Fuin.

LAY:

A vampire shape with pinions vast
screeching leaped from the ground, and passed,
its dark blood dripping on the trees;
and Huan neath him lifeless sees
a wolvish corpse for Thu had flown . . . . . (2820)
to Taur-na-Fuin, a new throne
and darker stronghold there to build.

That sounds for me like he was not killed by Huan. I rather see the story running along this line: Sauron was defeated by Huan in a way that he was not able give up his bodily form by his own will. But Huan had still the option to kill him. Since this was a “dire pain to such spirits” and would have hindered the building of a new body, Lúthien could utter the thread she did and so Sauron gave in and delivered the key and the word for the tower. When both had been proved true, Huan relinquished his grip a bit (by design or by being distracted). Not enough that Sauron could escape in bodily from, but enough that he could forsake his body by his own will.
I never thought that in doing so a Maiar would leaf a corpus behind, but it seems that this was an option, and I think that option was only possible at a coast, but granted Sauron a way of early escape.

Since we must not make the text clearer than it was, we need not change anything, but my be we should address this issue in the appendix.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

When I fist did compile this chapter I sought only of the newer sources for text. But while further reading I discovered a few snippets worth considering. Therefore following you will find further additions. I start with the end of the poem and give here all additions to the end of text not only the new ones for an easier reference.

Against the wall then Beren reeled
but still with his left he sought to shield
fair Lúthien, who cried aloud
to see his pain, and down she bowed
in anguish sinking to the ground.
*


BL-SL-08 <LQS 24 The Quest for the Silmaril 2
BL-EX-11.3 <LT Behold now that Silmaril blazeth with a white and hidden fire of its own nature and is possessed of a fierce and holy BL-EX-11.5 {magic}[power] - for did it not come from Valinor and the blessed realms, being fashioned with {spells of the Gods and Gnomes}[the kraft of Fëanor and the hallowing of Varda] before evil came there; and it doth not tolerate the touch of evil flesh or of unholy hand. Now cometh it into the foul body of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth]>. Then swiftly all his inwards were filled with a flame of anguish, and the Silmaril seared his accursed flesh. Howling he fled before them, and the walls of the valley of the Gate echoes with the clamour of his torment. …
…
… And they did not hasten from that place, for it seemed fair to them. Lúthien indeed was willing to wander in the wild without returning, forgetting house and people and all the glory of the Elf-kingdoms, and for a time Beren was content; but he could not for long forget his oath to return to Menegroth, nor would he withhold Lúthien from Thingol for ever. For he held by the law of Men, deeming it perilous to set at naught the will of the father, save at the last need; and it seemed also to him unfit that one so royal and fair as Lúthien should live always in the woods, as the rude hunters among Men, without home or honour or the fair things which are the delight of the queens of the Eldalië. BL-EX-11.7 <LT At last came there{ nevertheless} a day whereon waking out of a deep slumber Beren started up as one who leaves a dream of happy things coming suddenly to his mind, and he said: ‘Farewell, O Huan, most trusty comrade, and thou, little Tinúviel, whom I love, fare thee well. This only I beg of thee, get thee now straight to the safety of thy home, and may good Huan lead thee. But I - lo, I must away into the solitude of the woods, for I have lost that Silmaril which I had, and never dare I draw near to {Angamandi}[Angband] more, wherefore neither will I enter the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol].’ Then he wept to himself, but Tinúviel who was nigh and had hearkened to his musing came beside him and said: ‘Nay, now is my heart changed,’ and if thou dwellest in the woods, O Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion], then so will I, and if thou wilt wander in the wild places there will I wander also, or with thee or after thee: - yet never shall my father see me again save only if thou takest me to him.’ Then indeed was Beren glad at her sweet words, and fain would he have dwelt with her as a huntsman of the wild, but his heart smote him for all that she had suffered for him, and for her he put away his pride. Indeed she reasoned with him, saying it would be folly to be stubborn, and that her father would greet them with nought but joy, being glad to see his daughter yet alive - and ‘maybe,’ said she, ‘he will have shame that his jesting has given thy fair hand to the jaws of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth].’ But Huan also she implored to return with them a space, for ‘my father owes thee a very great reward, O Huan,’ saith she, ‘an he loves his daughter at all.’> Therefore {after a while he persuaded her, and }their footsteps forsook the houseless lands; and he passed into Doriath, leading Lúthien home. So their doom willed it. BL-EX-11.8 <Ros {But it}It was told in the legend of Beren and Lúthien that Lúthien learned Beren's native tongue during their long journeys together and ever after used it in their speech together. Not long before they came at last back to the borders of Doriath he asked her why she did so, since her own tongue was richer and more beautiful. Then she became silent and her eyes seemed to look far away before she answered: 'Why? Because I must forsake thee, or else forsake my own people and become one of the children of Men. Since I will never forsake thee, I must learn the speech of thy kin, and mine.'>

25 The Quest of the Silmaril 3:
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
Upon Doriath evil days had fallen. …
… But Thingol learned that Lúthien had journeyed far from Doriath, for messages came secretly from Celegorm, as has been told, saying that Felagund was dead, and Beren was dead, BL-EX-12 {but Lúthien was in Nargothrond, and that Celegorm would wed her.}and <Lay; Synopsis V that Celegorm {will}would make himself king of Narog, and while telling him that Lúthien {is}was safe in Nargothrond and treating for her hand, {hints}hinted that she {will}would not return: it also {warns}warned him to trouble not the matter of the Silmarils.> Then Thingol was wrathful, BL-EX-13 <Lay; Synopsis V and {is}was moved to think better of Beren, while yet blaming {[}him{]} for the woes that followed his coming to Doriath, and most for the loss of {Dairon}[Daeron].> {and}And he sent forth spies, thinking to make war upon Nargothrond. But BL-EX-14 <Lay; Synopsis V Melian {says}said she would forbid this evil war of Elf with Elf, but that never shall Thingol cross blade with Celegorm.> BL-EX-15 <Lay; Synopsis V Beleg was the chief of {his}Thingols scouts.> BL-EX-16 <Lay; Synopsis V {Beleg goes}He went forth from the camp on Doriath's borders and {journeys}journeyed, unseen by the archers, to Narog.>{; and thus he}Thus Thingol learned that Lúthien was again fled, and that Celegorm and Curufin were driven from Nargothrond. Then his counsel was in doubt, for he had not the strength to assail BL-RG-49 [all ]the{ seven} sons of Fëanor; but he sent messengers to Himring to summon their aid in seeking for Lúthien, since Celegorm had not sent her to the house of her father, nor had he kept her safely.
…
Even in that dark hour Beren and Lúthien returned. BL-EX-16.1 <LT Yet even as they approach they {find}found fear and tumult among that people such as had not been for a long age, and asking some that wept before their doors they learned that ever since the day of Tinúviel's secret flight ill-fortune had befallen them. Lo, the king had been distraught with grief and had relaxed his ancient wariness and cunning; indeed his warriors had been sent hither and thither deep into the unwholesome woods searching for that maiden, and many had been slain or lost for ever{, and war there was with Melko's servants about all their northern and eastern borders, so that the folk feared mightily lest that Ainu upraise his strength and come utterly to crush them and Gwendeling's magic have not the strength to withhold the numbers of the Orcs}. ‘Behold,’ said they, ‘’ow is the worst of all befallen, for long has Queen {Gwendeling}[Melian] sat aloof and smiled not nor spoken, looking as it were to a great distance with haggard eyes, and the web of her magic has blown thin about the woods, and the woods are dreary, for {Dairon}[Daeron] comes not back, neither is his music heard ever in the glades. Behold now the crown of all our evil tidings, for know that there has broken upon us raging from the halls of Evil a great grey wolf filled with an evil spirit, and he fares as though lashed by some hidden madness, and none are safe. Already has he slain many as he runs wildly snapping and yelling through the woods, so that the very banks of the stream that flows before the king's halls has become a lurking-place of danger. There comes the awful wolf oftentimes to drink, looking as the evil Prince himself with bloodshot eyes and tongue lolling out, and never can he slake his desire for water as though some inward fire devours him.’
Then was Tinúviel sad at the thought of the unhappiness that had come upon her folk, and most of all was her heart bitter at the story of {Dairon}[Daeron], for of this she had not heard any murmur before. Yet could she not wish Beren had come never to the lands of {Artanor}[Doriath], and together they made haste to {Tinwelint}[Thingol]; and already to the Elves of the wood it seemed that the evil was at an end now that Tinúviel was come back among them unharmed. Indeed they scarce had hoped for that.>{, hastening}Hastening from the west< they came at last to the gates of Menegroth>, and the news of their coming went before them like a sound of music borne by the wind into dark houses where men sit sorrowful.{ They came at last to the gates of Menegroth,} and a great host followed them. Then Beren led Lúthien before the throne of Thingol her father; and he looked in wonder upon Beren, whom he had thought dead; but he loved him not, because of the woes that he had brought upon Doriath. BL-EX-16.2 <LT In great gloom {do}did they find King {Tinwelint}[Thingol], yet suddenly is his sorrow melted to tears of gladness, and {Gwendeling}[Melian] {sings}sang again for joy when Tinúviel {enters}entered there and casting away her raiment of dark mist she {stands}stood before them in her pearly radiance of old. For a while all {is}was mirth and wonder in that hall, and yet at length the king {turns}turned his eyes to Beren and {says}said: ‘So thou hast returned too - bringing a Silmaril, beyond doubt, in recompense for all the ill thou hast wrought my land; or an thou hast not, I know not wherefore thou art here.’
Then Tinúviel stamped her foot and cried so that the king and all about him wondered at her new and fearless mood: ‘For shame, my father - behold, here is Beren the brave whom thy jesting drove into dark places and foul captivity and the Valar alone saved from a bitter death. Methinks 'twould rather befit a king of the Eldar to reward him than revile him.’ ‘Nay,’ said Beren, ‘the king thy father hath the right.> ’ And{But} Beren knelt before him, and said: 'I return according to my word. I am come now to claim my own.'
And Thingol answered: 'What of your quest, and of your vow?'
But Beren said: 'It is fulfilled. Even now a Silmaril is in my hand.'
Then Thingol said: 'Show it to me!'
BL-EX-16.3 {And}<Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘My handholds the jewel’, and> Beren put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. BL-EX-16.5 <Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘Alas!’ said Beren, ‘it is in the other hand, but that is not here.’> Then he held up his right arm; and from that hour he named himself Camlost, the Empty-handed.
Then Thingol's mood was softened, BL-EX-16.7 <LT by reason of his stout and courteous demeanour, and he bade Beren and Tinúviel relate to him all that had befallen either of them, and he was eager to hearken, for he did not fully comprehend the meaning of Beren's words>; and Beren sat before his throne upon the left, and Lúthien upon the right, and they told all the tale of the Quest, while all there listened and were filled with amazement. And it seemed to Thingol that this Man was unlike all other mortal Men, BL-EX-17 <GA and among the great in Arda,> and the love of Lúthien a thing new and strange; and he perceived that their doom might not be withstood by any power of the world. Therefore at the last he yielded his will, and Beren took the hand of Lúthien before the throne of her father.
BL-EX-17.3 <LT ‘Never again,’ said he, ‘O Beren I beg of thee, leave this court nor the side of Tinúviel, for thou art a great {Elf}[Men] and thy name will ever be great among the kindreds.’ Yet Beren answered him proudly, and said: ‘Nay, O King, I hold to my word and thine, and I will get thee that Silmaril or ever I dwell in peace in thy halls.’ And the king entreated him to journey no more into the dark and unknown realms, but Beren said: ‘No need is there thereof, for behold that jewel is even now nigh to thy caverns,’ and he made clear to Tinwelint that that beast that ravaged his land was none other than {Karkaras}[Carcharoth], the wolfward of {Melko}[Morgoth]'s gates - and this was not known to all, but Beren knew it taught by Huan, whose cunning in the reading of track and slot was greatest among all the hounds, and therein are none of them unskilled.>
But now a shadow fell upon the joy of Doriath at the return of Lúthien the fair; for learning of the cause of the madness of Carcharoth the people grew the more afraid, perceiving that his danger was fraught with dreadful power because of the holy jewel, and hardly might be overthrown.{ And Beren, hearing of the onslaught of the Wolf, understood that the Quest was not yet fulfilled.}
Therefore, since daily Carcharoth drew nearer to Menegroth, they prepared the Hunting of the Wolf; of all pursuits of beasts whereof tales tell the most perilous. BL-EX-17.5 <LT King {Tinwelint}[Thingol] himself led that chase, and Beren <Camlost> was beside him, <and Beleg Strongbow,> and Mablung the heavy-handed, chief of the king's thanes, leaped up and grasped a spear - a mighty weapon {captured}[profen] in battle with the distant Orcs - and with those three stalked Huan mightiest of dogs, but others they would not take according to the desire of the king, who said: ‘{Four}[Five] is enough for the slaying even of the Hell-wolf’ - but only those who had seen knew how fearsome was that beast, nigh as large as a horse among Men, and so great was the ardour of his breath that it scorched whatsoever it touched.> {To that chase went Huan the Hound of Valinor, and Mablung of the Heavy Hand, and Beleg Strongbow, and Beren Camlost, and Thingol King of Doriath.} They rode forth in the morning and passed over the River Esgalduin; but Lúthien remained behind at the gates of Menegroth. A dark shadow fell upon her and it seemed to her that the sun had sickened and turned black.
The hunters turned east and north, <EX-BL-17.7 <LT and soon after Huan espied a new slot beside the stream, not far from the king's doors{, "and," quoth he, "this is the print of Karkaras."}. Thereafter they followed that stream{ all day}, and at many places its banks were new-trampled and torn and the water of the pools that lay about it was fouled as though some beasts possessed of madness had rolled and fought there not long before.> and following the course of the river they came at last upon Carcharoth the Wolf in a dark valley, down the northern side whereof Esgalduin fell in a torrent over steep falls. …
…
Mablung and Beleg came hastening to the King's aid, but when they looked upon what was done they cast aside their spears and wept. Then Mablung took a knife and ripped up the belly of the Wolf; and within he was well nigh all consumed as with a fire, but the hand of Beren that held the jewel was yet incorrupt. BL-EX-18 <Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 Mablung took out Beren’s right hand – his kamba, still holding the Silmaril and by its protection unmortified and clean. But to his surprise the hand and jewel seemed to have so great a weight that Mablung's own hand was dragged earthward and forced open, letting the other fall to the ground. It was said that Mablung's name ('with weighted hand') was prophetic; but it may have been a title derived from the episode that afterwards became the one that the hero was chiefly remembered by in legend.> But when Mablung reached forth to touch it, the hand was no more, and the Silmaril lay there unveiled, and the light of it filled the shadows of the forest all about them. BL-EX-18.3 <LT Then {holding it out }he said: ‘Behold O King,’ but {Tinwelint}[Thingol] said: ‘Nay, never will I handle it save only if Beren give it to me.{" But Huan said: "} And that seems like never to be, unless {ye}[we] tend him swiftly, for methinks he is hurt sorely’; and Mablung {and the king were}was ashamed.>Then quickly and in fear Mablung took it and set it in Beren's living hand; and Beren was aroused by the touch of the Silmaril, and held it aloft, and bade Thingol receive it. ‘BL-EX-18.5 <LT Behold, O King, I give thee the wondrous jewel thou didst desire, and it is but a little thing found by the wayside, for once methinks thou hadst one beyond thought more beautiful, and she is now mine. >Now is the Quest achieved,' he said, 'and my doom full-wrought'; and he spoke no more.

26 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
BL-EX-18.7 <LT Therefore now they raised Beren gently up and tended him and washed him, and he breathed, but he spoke not nor opened his eyes, and when the sun {arose}[set down] and they had rested a little they bore him as softly as might be upon a bier of boughs back through the woodlands; and {nigh midday}[when] they drew near the homes of the folk again{, and then were} they were deadly weary, and Beren had not moved nor spoken, but groaned thrice.> They bore back Beren Camlost son of Barahir upon a bier of branches with Huan the wolfhound at his side; and night fell ere they returned to Menegroth. …
…
Then a winter, as it were the hoar age of mortal Men, fell upon Thingol.> BL-EX-19 <editorial bridge In the Lay it is told:>
Where the forest-stream went through the wood,
and silent all the stems there stood
of tall trees, moveless, hanging dark
with mottled shadows on their bark
above the green and gleaming river, [5]
there came through leaves a sudden shiver,
a windy whisper through the still
cool silences; and down the hill,
as faint as a deep sleeper's breath,
an echo came as cold as death: [10]
'Long are the paths, of shadow made
where no foot's print is ever laid,
over the hills, across the seas!
Far, far away are the Lands of Ease,
but the Land of the Lost is further yet, [15]
where the Dead wait, while ye forget.
No moon is there, no voice, no sound
of beating heart; a sigh profound
once in each age as each age dies
alone is heard. Far, far it lies, [20]
the Land of Waiting where the Dead sit,
in their thought's shadow, by no moon lit.'
<LQS; from Sil77 {But}Thus Lúthien came to the halls of Mandos, where are the appointed places of the Eldalië, beyond the mansions of the West upon the confines of the world. …
… Therefore he summoned Beren, and even as Lúthien had spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea.
The Choices of Lúthien
But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar. …
…
… So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, thought all the world is changed, the likeness of Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.

It is said that Beren and Lúthien returned to the northern lands of Middle-earth, and dwelt together for a time as living man and woman; BL-EX-20 {for taking}and they took up again their mortal form in Doriath. BL-EX-21 <GA Those that saw them were both glad and fearful; and Lúthien went to Menegroth and healed the winter of Thingol with the touch of her hand. But Melian looked in her eyes and read the doom that was written there, and turned away; for she knew that a parting beyond the end of the world had come between them, and no grief of loss has been heavier than the grief of Melian the Maia in that hour.> {they}Then Beren and Lúthien went forth alone, fearing neither thirst nor hunger; and they passed beyond the rivers into Ossiriand, and abode there in the green isle, Tol Galen, in the midst of Adurant, until all tidings of them ceased. There for the {Noldor}[Eldar] afterwards called that country {Gyrth-I-Guinar}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the country of the Dead that Live BL-EX-22 <GA ; and there was born{In this year was the birth of} Dior Aranel the Beautiful{ in Gwerth-i-Guinar}, who was after known as Dior BL-EX-23 <Sil77 Eluchíl, which is> Thingol's heir, father of the Halfelven.> {and no}No mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir; and whether the second span of his life was brief or long is not known to Elves or Men, for none saw Beren or Lúthien leave the world or marked where at last their bodies lay.>

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

I found an addition to BL-EX-11.8. reading a bit before the passage we used is also some retrospectiv info that we might use. But to make it fit the place were we will put it we have change the arangement a bit:

Thereafter Beren was named Erchamion, which is the One-handed; and suffering was graven in his face. But at last he was drawn back to life by the love of Lúthien, and he arose, and together they walked in the woods once more. And they did not hasten from that place, for it seemed fair to them. Lúthien indeed was willing to wander in the wild without returning, forgetting house and people and all the glory of the Elf-kingdoms, and for a time Beren was content; but he could not for long forget his oath to return to Menegroth, nor would he withhold Lúthien from Thingol for ever. For he held by the law of Men, deeming it perilous to set at naught the will of the father, save at the last need; and it seemed also to him unfit that one so royal and fair as Lúthien should live always in the woods, as the rude hunters among Men, without home or honour or the fair things which are the delight of the queens of the Eldalië. BL-EX-11.7 <LT At last came there{ nevertheless} a day whereon waking out of a deep slumber Beren started up as one who leaves a dream of happy things coming suddenly to his mind, and he said: ‘Farewell, O Huan, most trusty comrade, and thou, little Tinúviel, whom I love, fare thee well. This only I beg of thee, get thee now straight to the safety of thy home, and may good Huan lead thee. But I - lo, I must away into the solitude of the woods, for I have lost that Silmaril which I had, and never dare I draw near to {Angamandi}[Angband] more, wherefore neither will I enter the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol].’ Then he wept to himself, but Tinúviel who was nigh and had hearkened to his musing came beside him and said: ‘Nay, now is my heart changed,’ and if thou dwellest in the woods, O Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion], then so will I, and if thou wilt wander in the wild places there will I wander also, or with thee or after thee: - yet never shall my father see me again save only if thou takest me to him.’ Then indeed was Beren glad at her sweet words, and fain would he have dwelt with her as a huntsman of the wild, but his heart smote him for all that she had suffered for him, and for her he put away his pride. Indeed she reasoned with him, saying it would be folly to be stubborn, and that her father would greet them with nought but joy, being glad to see his daughter yet alive - and ‘maybe,’ said she, ‘he will have shame that his jesting has given thy fair hand to the jaws of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth].’ But Huan also she implored to return with them a space, for ‘my father owes thee a very great reward, O Huan,’ saith she, ‘an he loves his daughter at all.’> Therefore {after a while he persuaded her, and }their footsteps forsook the houseless lands; and he passed into Doriath, leading Lúthien home. So their doom willed it. BL-EX-11.8 <Ros {But it}It was told in the legend of Beren and Lúthien that Lúthien learned Beren's native tongue during their long journeys together and ever after used it in their speech together. <Ros The Folk of Bëor continued to speak their own tongue among themselves with fair purity, though many Sindarin words were borrowed and adapted by them [footnote: Not necessarily confined to names of things that had not before {[}been{]} known. In the nomenclature of later generations assimilation to the Eldarin modes, and the use of some elements frequent in Eldarin names, can be observed.] This was of course the native tongue of Beren, lineal descendant of Bëor the Old. He spoke Sindarin after a fashion (probably derived from North Sindarin); but his halting and dialectal use of it offended the ears of Thingol. [Footnote: {He [}Thingol{]} had small love for the Northern Sindar who had in regions near Angband come under the dominion of Morgoth, and were accused of sometimes entering his service and providing him with spies. The Sindarin used by the Sons of Fëanor also was the northern dialect; and they were hated in Doriath.]> Not long before {they}Beren and Lúthien came at last back to the borders of Doriath he asked her why she did {so}use his tongue, since her own tongue was richer and more beautiful. Then she became silent and her eyes seemed to look far away before she answered: 'Why? Because I must forsake thee, or else forsake my own people and become one of the children of Men. Since I will never forsake thee, I must learn the speech of thy kin, and mine.'>

Here after follwos chapter 25 there fore I did not give any more in the quote.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

My apologies again for the terrible state of neglect in which I've left this project. Here are my comments on the remainder of the original Beren and Luthien changes.

BL-SL-06: I’m inclined to think that the discrepancy between the Lay and QS77 can be put down to compression.

BL-RG-40: Let’s retain the plural:

BL-RG-40 {Thu's messengers}[Sauron’s heralds].

BL-RG-41: Without the “thou”, the sentence is no longer grammatical. I suggest:

BL-RG-41 {when} [with] {Thu thou}[Sauron] {vanquishedst}[vanquished], what need

BL-RG-42: I suppose this is justifiable.

BL-RG-45: I think we must look for a better solution to this line. The best case would be that we could keep the first line and find a new rhyme for “new”. Let’s see:

BL-RG-45I fare with hasty tidings new (3770)
{to Morgoth }from[Sauron, Morgoth’s servant true]{forest-haunting Thu}.

Not great, I know. Perhaps there’s another rhyme for “new” that could be used.

BL-RG-48: I suppose “Gods” is all right in this instance.

BL-EX-12: I like the idea of incorporating details from the synopsis, but I think this sentence has become a little unwieldy. I suggest:

But Thingol learned that Lúthien had journeyed far from Doriath, for messages came secretly from Celegorm, as has been told, saying that Felagund was dead, and Beren was dead, BL-EX-12{but Lúthien was in Nargothrond, and that Celegorm would wed her.} and <Lay; Synopsis V that Celegorm {will}would make himself king of Narog{,}[;] and while telling him that Lúthien {is}was safe in Nargothrond and treating for her hand, {hints}it hinted that she {will}would not return: it also {warns}warned him to trouble not the matter of the Silmarils.>

BL-EX-16.3: Unfortunately, I have none of the VT and I have not seen Eldarin Hands – but I’ll take your word for it. I think that the splicing has left an ungrammatical sentence though, so I’d suggest:

BL-EX-16.3{And}<Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘My hand holds the jewel’, Beren said and> {Beren}[he] put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. BL-EX-16.5<Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals, VT47 ‘Alas!’ said Beren, ‘it is in the other hand, but that is not here.’>

I have yet to look carefully over the changes Findegil proposed in the last two posts. As for introducing some details of the hunting of the wolf from BoLT - I was going to suggest that myself!

I will, I hope, be able to go back over the unresolved points and look for better solutions to some lines this week.

[Findegil]

Okay, your suggestions are good. Even BL-RG-45. All other ryhmings I could find do not seem to be much better:

BL-RG-45 I fare with hasty tidings new (3770)
to Morgoth from [Sauron's ]forest-haunting {Thu}[crew].

or with a gramatic liberty:

BL-RG-45 I fare with hasty tidings new (3770)
to Morgoth from [Sauron's, ]{forest-}haunting {Thu}[forests through].

I will stopp now before you leap up and run screaming from the screen, when I try to find a sense full sentence for the ryhming of "new" - "clow".

Respectfully
Findegil