Dueling Wizards Werewolf Suggestion Thread

[littlemanpoet]

Noggie, you make an impressive case for there to be more Night time freedom for the werewolves. So I'll think out loud for a bit. That means that the following is not conclusive possibility, but bouncing off ideas.

1. The werewolves and EW choose kills, and explain them in as much depth as they feel appropriate (EW acts like a werewolf).
2. The sub-mod (poor bloke/blokette) SUMMARIZES the explanations to the EW and other werewolves.
3. The werewolves and EW repeat step 1.
4. The sub-mod repeats step 2.
5. The werewolves and EW repeat step 1 again.
6,7,8.... This continues until consensus is reached, or until 2 hours before the end of the Night phase. If there is consensus, the werewolves' choices are communicated to the Moderator. If there is no consensus, the EW makes a decision.

What do you think?

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

- I'm of the opinion that we were strictly informed not to make any cases or arguments about our wannabe-kills but just to give the name of our choice to the sub-mod. That I think was made pretty clear from the beginning (and I protested against it before knowing myself to be a wolf). The arguments would have been futile anyhow, because it was said that no arguments would be posted to other wolves to ponder about. So a question of a simple majority rule, with the EW having the possibility of overriding it at her wish. (If Morm actually produced wealthy arguments, I think he broke the initial rule - or at least the rule I frustrated myself on)

I was never aware if this. Can you point out what it was that made you think this way? I thought that the wolves would PM Boromir in whatever fashion they deemed reasonable, and he just quoted what they said in a PM to me. I see no reason why it couldn't continue like that. It may be a lot of reading for everyone, but that's what would be happening if there was no sub mod and everyone was just talking to each other. The only risk would be if the wolves were able to figure each other out by type, which is why the reasons should be sent to the EW first, and then the EW should decide what goes where. The sub-mod would send the messages of the EW not as a quote but as a paraphrase.

It seems that your biggest problem with the game was how isolated you were as a wolf. If we let the wolves reason at will with the EW via the sub-mod, and then let the EW decide how to send the choices to the wolves, it should solve a lot of that. And maybe the wolves could send multiple names andreasons, so the EW can compile a "kill list" of people safe to attack during the day (which would give the wolves more direction and a strategy so as not to be so paranoid about who to attack.) However, the extra names should not be required, and should come at the request of the EW. Remember, the EW is not a "teammate" on the Evil side- s/he is team leader, and should be treated as such.

So, Wolves message sub-mod with whatever kind of reasoning they want
Sub-mod Fwd's all messages to the EW with the wolf's name as the subject
The EW looks at the reasons and decides either who to kill, or which group it would be okay to kill. At this point the EW could add another name to the list if s/he so desired.
The EW sends this list with the reasons to the sub-mod, who then paraphrases everything and sends it to the wolves.
The wolves then look at the reasons, and then offer arguments or consensus, which is forwarded to the EW via the sub-mod.
This continues until a consensus is reached, or the EW makes a decision.

The EW should have a "last resort kill" in case a choice is not made by the deadline (which is, infact, 2 hrs before the deadline). That way there will be a kill regardless.

This may be a lot of work for the EW and the sub mod, but that comes with the territory. People shouldn't volunteer for these positions if they don't have the time to do the work.

[JennyHallu]

Sure, we're welcome to put as much reasoning as we please, but we can't see any of it, and nothing we say has any effect. That's the issue, Roa. Plus, I didn't like that we had no way of knowing who the kill would be or why that person was killed...we didn't know who we killed any sooner than the village did, and thus couldn't plan ahead.

Frankly, I don't think the EW should have the power he or she does over the choices of the wolves. One danger of creating minions is that the minions may take some initiative that goes beyond or outside your own plans. The GW cannot dictate the seer's dream or the hunter's choice, and werewolves are much less likely, by nature, to be easily controlled. The werewolves should be more autonomous from the EW. He/She should be able to make suggestions, but not an out and out veto. What point is there to being a wolf, really?

[Roa_Aoife]

Sure, we're welcome to put as much reasoning as we please, but we can't see any of it, and nothing we say has any effect. That's the issue, Roa.

You may have missed it, but I did say the EW sends back the reasoning to the other wolves for them to see and think over. So, the others do see it, and it does have an effect.

Plus, I didn't like that we had no way of knowing who the kill would be or why that person was killed...we didn't know who we killed any sooner than the village did, and thus couldn't plan ahead.

Half the time it was a surprise for me too. This was because I would have to leave before the dealine, and so I told Boromir that whoever had the most votes by deadline would get killed. A few days I was honestly surprised by the kill of the night.

Frankly, I don't think the EW should have the power he or she does over the choices of the wolves. One danger of creating minions is that the minions may take some initiative that goes beyond or outside your own plans.

But it's wizards werewolf. The point of the game is that we have two wizards running things from behind the scenes. Sure that's a danger with monions, unless you instill order by force. (Dictator like and all.) The real danger of the wolves if that if they get scryed they imediately change sides. This is not so with the gifted. It doesn't behoove the EW to turn a gifted except to get rid of them, becuase They stay on the same side. Wolves who get scryed by the GW are imediately back on the good team. The evil side is disadvantaged at this point. Hence the need for the EW to closely manage the wolves, and if necessary to be able to override the kills.

I told Boromir outright, because of all the information Morm had that if he was turned he was to be killed imediately. This would override all wolfish discussion, but it was for the good of the team.

The GW cannot dictate the seer's dream or the hunter's choice

Gurthang is free to correct me on this, but I do believe he did. That's why phantom refused to make a choice on who to hunt. He was waiting for Gurthang's directions.[/quote]

werewolves are much less likely, by nature, to be easily controlled.

Actually wolves are pack animals who will defer to the alpha of the group, in this case, the EW.

The werewolves should be more autonomous from the EW. He/She should be able to make suggestions, but not an out and out veto.

But what if the wolves pick the EW or another wolf? The only one who would know it is the EW. You forget the nature of evil is to be controlling. The EW and the wolves are a team, and the EW is the leader of that team. What would be the point of Wizards Werewolf if you took away the power of the Wizards?

[JennyHallu]

But that was phantom's choice to wait for direction, not a requirement.


And Roa, I never saw a blip of reasoning sent back to me on why the choices were what they were.


And we aren't wolves, we're werewolves, who go into a berserk hunger-rage when changed.


To me it seemed the greatest power of the wizards was the ability to choose their team, and what seemed most frustrating to me was that the way the rules played out the job was to have the biggest team, and not at all to have the best team. Especially in the beginning, and especially the hunter...that quite irritated me) My role as a team member was passive, not active: It was more important that I existed than what I did. The game became all kinds of thrilling fun as soon as you were dead, Roa.

[Roa_Aoife]

There was no reasoning sent back because I chose not to do that- I figured you were bright enough to look at the people on the list for yourself and make your decision this way. But I am reffering to changes that could be made in the future game, not about what I did in the last game- try to keep up.

I chose my wolves carefully and I had many reasons for who I chose when I did. I chose Valier for the specific reason of sacrifice. I chose Alcarillo for longevity. I chose you for your deviousness. But you were only a wolf for two nights before I died. Had you spent more time as a wolf, then our interactions would have likely changed.

I remind you that I never got more than a name from you. Why would I try reasons with someone who didn't seem prone to using them? Morm was active long before he knew who I was- first night he sent me a list of all players with evalutations, then the next day he started a strategy that worked very well up until Spawn got him. You're role was passive because that's how you played, not because of how things were set up.

And therianthropes, or "werecreatures" are people who take on the chracteristics, both physical and behavoral, of a certain animal. Hence lycanthropes or "werewolves" are people who take on the characteristics of wolves both physically and behavorally. That includes pack mentality.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Roa

Gurthang is free to correct me on this, but I do believe he did. That's why phantom refused to make a choice on who to hunt. He was waiting for Gurthang's directions.

True, sort of. I did not have direct control, as in they had to send the choice to the mod for it to count. I did ask/tell them about who to dream/hunt (never was a surviving Ranger, so...), but they still had to say that's who they would pick.

If I could just have told the mod who they were going to dream of, it would have eliminated their job. In that case, as long as they stay alive, they wouldn't even have to do anything, because I would just tell the mod what they were going to do each Night.

Originally Posted by Jenny

But that was phantom's choice to wait for direction, not a requirement.

Right. He chose to wait so that he would not accidentally kill the Seer. But he did not have to wait.

That's one thing that always bugged me. I could never bring the gifteds up to speed the first Night they were changed. I had to wait until the next Day to tell them what was up. So their first dream/hunt could have been a repeat of an already known (to me) innocent, and therefore a waste. Although, we've already stated that the Good Team should PM at Night from now on.