Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[littlemanpoet]

Good grief!

A slight rearrangement so as to put one particular issue to rest:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Marenil wishes to institute a way for the farmers to pay their taxes in agricultural tithes, and/or set up a system by which Eodwine serves as broker for the goods of his lands for a percentage (freeing the farmholders to return to their fields and families rather than dealing with the sale of their goods.)

You may consider this to already be in place.

Originally Posted by JH

Marenil wants to start a caravan trade over the mountains (or perhaps just into the mountains

The White Mountains may not be impassible, but they're not easy to get through or into. Trade would have to be around them.

...would Ghan-buri-Ghan be interested in augmenting the diet of his folk? Just a random thought...).

Might need to check with the Eorl of the East Emnet for that.

What state is the Great Hall itself right now? We seem to be using it again (rather than the tent-hall), but it seems unlikely that it be complete. Is it being completed in sections, starting with the least damaged area? That might explain why some of it is usable again, and also how Eodwine is funding its expansion: a little at a time.

The shell is in place. It is currently 30 feet long by 24 feet wide, so it is half the length shown on Jenny's map. The kitchen and downed wall went up first. Given a period of a month to do the work, our builders were rather fast, I suppose, in getting as far as they did. Oh well. I'm no judge of how long such things took. But just the walls, roof, and rafters. The firepit still needs to be finished. The original tables an chairs are set in the Hall.

How is Eodwine planning to deal with the security of his own people with the free-guesters in the Hall?

Thornden and Garwine are in charge of keeping the peace on the Grounds of the Eorling Mead Hall.

Kara, in particular, will need to traverse the Hall, alone, in the wee morning hours, and she is a young and comely maid. In Beowulf's Mead Hall, lmp, sexual taboos were much less stringent even than they are now. I doubt practices appropriate in Beowulf's hall would have any place in Tolkien's world, especially with his seeming worship of a feminine ideal.

Well, it was only in seeming, I suppose; but that's a quibble. Kara would be most unwise to walk the Hall at night, or she may find herself considered other than she intends, or worse. This may be seem rather harsh on my part, but we are writing about a feigned time and place where it was men's world.

As I get involved in the accounts and money-management of Eodwine's holdings, can we decide upon a standard monetary system? I assume no paper money, but what coins? Until further notice, I'm going to at least pretend we're using old English money: pennies and shillings and pounds, etc, but relative values and practical values should be established.

Let's go with Tolkien's system. In the absence of any clarity there, let us say the following:

a copper = 1 day's wage
a half silver = 10 coppers
a silver = 20 coppers
a gold = 4 silvers

Can I assume that the "Middle Emnet" is not merely the lands surrounding Edoras, but the government and ordinance of the city itself?

Yes.

I'm going to get this settle once and for all. The extend of the Middle Emnet is as follows:

Southern border: the slopes of the White Mountains
Western border: 50 miles west of Edoras
Northern border: the fens of the Entwash
Eastern border: the Entwash

To the south and east of Edoras, is the land known as The Folde, which is part of East Emnet. So roughly 5000 square miles of land (50x50).

I've got a number of ideas on how that could help Eodwine...fees and taxes that have gone unasked as Eodwine sets up his estate that Marenil will quietly reinstate and enforce. It could also allow for some daily duties of Thornden that would not call him outside the walls.

Marenil will have to provide specifics to Eodwine.

I've reordered my list, LMP, into things Marenil wishes started right away and saved for later, and the main factor involved is startup cost.

First ... Marenil wishes to dedicate a cauldron to a pot of inexpensive, but hearty porridge. ... Eodwine could provide a communal jar of honey for his guests to sweeten their meals with, which would last a long time at little cost. ...

Eodwine would be agreeable, and of course willing to make exceptions as the mood hits him.

Marenil will also urge the hasty installation of benches such as you described, with old bedding from the Inn mended and stored within. (Perhaps they could find a lot of bedding needing minimal repairs when they venture to the attic?)

Good.

He would also like to manufacture...

Manufacture is far off in the future; at least as we know it. But they could be made

.... linen screens that can be stored against the wall and pulled out to provide privacy for a woman guest (or a man who feels uncomfortable with the sleeping arrangements for that matter).

What an odd notion for the commons; it's as if they thought they was highborn. (wink)

With this basis for a standard and generous treatment of guests established, Marenil hopes to encourage Eodwine to take up some of the aspects of an Innkeeper without prejudice, since his obligation will have already been fulfilled.

The Eorl is no Innkeeper. This is the Mead Hall of a lord, albeit a rather wistful and (somewhat) carefree one. Without prejudice? What do you mean?

He wishes to make sure that Eodwine is not taken advantage of...

The Eorl and his steward are quite likely to have pointed conversations about this.

Except for noble guests, Marenil intends to ask a small price for passing guests to stay in a Hall bedroom, as available. He also wishes there to be a small fee for guests who wish to extend their stay in the Hall longer than...oh...three nights, payable by the night or sevenday, making them effectively lodgers after a certain point, rather than guests. He also will urge that those free-guesters who wish to share the Lord's evening meal (i.e. something with meat) pay a small fee, a penny or so only,

Eodwine will say 'no'.

Harrold and Gareth (did I get the names right?)

Close. Harreld and Garreth.

[quote]Second, Marenil wishes to create bedrooms for the residents (and children) out of the Inn's attic space, which would not at all be uncommon for the times, or the architectural style (wattle-and-daub) we chose for the Hall. He intends to add dormer windows (probably simply built by Stigend out of the scrap lumber from the old hall and kitchen: thatch roofs should be fairly easy to alter), but put up simple partitions that do not need Stigend's handiwork for more than some basic planning. These rooms would be large, light, and comfortable in summer.[/qutoe]Good idea.

My only worry is that they may be difficult to heat in winter, but if this is brought up Marenil shall point out that winter is a long way off, and there is plenty of time for something to be done about that.

Heat rises. With small hearths in the downstairs rooms, the attic would most likely be rather cozy in winter, and downright suffocating in summer.

I wonder if cast-iron has been developed, either in Rohan or Gondor? If at least in Gondor, he can write his son to have purchased and sent with Linduial upon her return several small cast-iron stoves or braziers.

The late 3rd Age is well into Iron Age technology. So yes.

This would free the regular rooms for guests, families, and officers, and for another little plan Marenil's got up his sleeve (to be detailed below). Those I think should be sent upstairs are Kara, Trys, Leof (who Marenil will give a room even if he doesn't use it to sleep in, as it might still be nice for Leof to have a more private space to himself, or to escape from the heat of the stables in summer), Merdha (when she arrives), and children or young people over the age of ten. There should still be plenty of space for later additions, and I don't think the children's space needs even to be partitioned off further than putting the adult rooms in between spaces for girls and for boys.

Except that you'd think they was nobles with all these highfalutin partitions. Children and parents room together.

All other householders and officers Marenil will move to the second story, (even to kicking Lin out of her room, and moving her downstairs if necessary for space) where rooms are larger. Only Frodides will stay downstairs, as her injured leg might prohibit her from getting up and down the stairs easily. This would create some separation between the household and the guests, fostering more of a family atmosphere (I hope). Rooms reserved for Gudryn and Aedhel (who are away on a rather long term basis) could be used as guest rooms for folks such as Degas or Thornden's sister: personal guests of the household, as opposed to the freeguests and visiting gentry.

Good.

There needs to be some space for livestock and to exercise the horses, and I don't think that would be too difficult to manage. ... If the Hall is not yet of the dimensions I have in my sketch, but is being expanded slowly, in stages, then there could easily be a great deal of space in front of it or in the courtyard available that is not evident on that sketch, and that will be available for a good long time, and probably Eodwine will be able to afford to expand his own estate (or set up a separate farmholding for his own table outside the city walls. or both.) long before that space is needed for building.

That makes 50 feet from Hall to road in the front by 100 feet wide. Plent of space. What on earth did Bethberry do with it all?

A few livestock (2 dairy cows, one of them pregnant (so we can have steak later (steak...mmm...(nested parentheses are fun!))), a pig, oh...twenty laying hens, and a rooster) would be fairly inexpensive, and Marenil feels he can stretch the budget to cover them, or if not, he recieves a private pension (delivered him by a merchant-banker who has an arrangement with Farlen in many different cities) and, as he has little need for the money now, he may make some small purchases (at least at the outset) out of his own money without telling anyone...might be entertaining later for him to be found out.

Interesting. Eodwine would be humiliated.

Marenil has noticed in his month of residence at the Hall, that although Eodwine seems to have the respect (albeit grudging in some instances) of the simple farmers, Eodwine's standing among his noble vassals seems dangerously low. None have come to pay him court, and he wonders if this is perhaps due to Eodwine's low birth, or to his harboring of Saeryn, a runaway, or to his favor with the King and rapid (and high) ennoblement. Whatever the reason, not one of the lesser nobles of the Middle Emnet have come to pay him court, and Marenil seeks a solution to this problem (which could become very serious).

This is based on a misunderstanding. If you read the posts on court day, you will see that folk of all stations did come; it's just that we have nobody writing noble characters, so their stories didn't get told. We can still conclude that many nobles did show up. That said, the level of respect is probably still less than it could be.

The easiest way for a man to affect another may (arguably of course) be through his children, and Marenil plans to encourage Eodwine to seek out a few high-born fosterlings to add to his household. These would allow Eodwine's nobles to take advantage of Eodwine's high standing with the court, foist off some of their mouths to feed, and tentatively align themselves with their new lord without risking anything more precious than a few of their younger children, who may be able to easier find a way to support themselves living in the city anyway. At the least, Eodwine's background and connections might help them rise in the Guard, surely not a shameful place for a younger son to go...

A nice idea, but Eodwine is not at all sure he's ready for such a venture.

And while the nobles take advantage of Eodwine's generosity, Eodwine is entrusted with the education (and foster fathering) of their children, and that cannot help but increase his standing, as long as the children are well-taught and do well in the future, and are fond of him...

ditto.

Well thought out, Jenny. There's enough here to fill the agenda for an entire year or more.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

For those that don't stalk me and therefore don't know already, I'm soon to be a lot less active.

From tomorrow until the first week of September, I'll be having the life that I've spent all summer working myself exhausted to have. The times in between my travelling, I'll be just as busy as I regularly am, with the additional work of packing to move back to school.

I'm not positive; I might be able to keep up. But in case I do fall out of contact, here's what's up with my characters after the time jump:

Farahil's with Lin. Use him how you will, Jen. I have nothing planned for him until he returns to Rohan. He can do pretty much anything, so long as he stays alive.

Degas should be considered gone from the Hall. He gave Saeryn and Eodwine a couple days' warning, but nobody else, except maybe Garstan's daughter. He left a week after Lin to do a few things that he needs to do. If Lin gets back before he does, so much the more entertaining. "I'll wait for you forever!" and he's gone. We should really petition B-W for an evil smiley.

Saeryn will be the hardest to keep up with, since she's the only one particularly active in the actual hall right now. I'll try to be around often enough to keep up with her. If I do fall out of contact, use her.

I think that's everything...

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks for the heads up, Fea.

Are there writers who want to post as soon as the new Day begins (which will be precisely one month after the current Day)?

These past few RL days seem to have been pretty dry across the Downs. Let me know.

Jenny, do you plan to write for Marenil in the next day or so, or should we give you all the time you need, and have Pio insert Marenil's response when you have time to write it?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by lmp

Are there writers who want to post as soon as the new Day begins (which will be precisely one month after the current Day)?

I guess both Stigend and Modtryth would like to post something as both myself and Lommy will be away again (from July 28th / myself, and July 30th / Lommy). I'll contact Celuien about the children and wish her to send her responses to both of us.

There is no hurry in a sense that we would need to have an immediate post, but it would be nice to manage writing something before we go off-line again for a week... Anyhow, our family has been at the Mead Hall a day and then we jump a month.

Please all the others, send us your thoughts via this thread or PM of what do you think or how do you wish to relate (or not to relate) to our family during that month. That would help making the leap...

[piosenniel]

Just a small request for those who might want posts placed - do give me the post # and tell me whether you want your post before or after the post already there.

Thanks!

~*~ Pio

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I guess both Stigend and Modtryth would like to post something as both myself and Lommy will be away again (from July 28th / myself, and July 30th / Lommy).

If you want to post first on the new Day, please do.

Anyhow, our family has been at the Mead Hall a day and then we jump a month.

If you need a shorter time period, please say so. I asked everyone what was the longest time jump they could handle; nobody said anything specific, so I offered a month as a possibility. We don't have to go with a full month if you need something less; just say so.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

If you need a shorter time period, please say so. I asked everyone what was the longest time jump they could handle; nobody said anything specific, so I offered a month as a possibility. We don't have to go with a full month if you need something less; just say so.

There probably is no problem with a month's leap. Any leap with someone who has just entered the place opens certain things that has to be thought of. How did the others relate to them after their arrival and their being there the first day, the second etc.? Were there any mishaps or incidents (positive or negative) during the time? How did they themselves adjusted to the people around them etc...? So we face the same questions with a jump of a week or a month.

And surely, that seems to be no problem. I think the relations between Stigend and Garstan seem to be right - and we have some nice plans for the kids' mutual relationships with Celuien. And what Fea wrote seems to confirm my positive expectations in relation of Modtryth taking her place in the Mead Hall.

But what about the others? At least people who would come to interact with us during the month should already have an idea about us (as we should of them). So how is Marenil or Nain going to see the newcomers, or Thornden, or Frodides and Kara, or others?

Or how is Trystan fitting in?

It would be nice to have a short idea from everyone actively writing, how they see all the newcomers. That would ease up writing the first post after the jump?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So how is Marenil or Nain going to see the newcomers, or Thornden, or Frodides and Kara, or others?

Nain, likely enough, would interact little with Modtryth or Cnebba. He's rather uncomfortable around women he doesn't know (and sometimes even those he does), and he'd have little enough reason to be around Modtryth, save insofar as he'd become familiar with her face. Much the same with Cnebba- I really don't see Nain being all that comfortable around human children.

Likely enough, he'd get to know Stigend fairly well. Though more of an ornamental sculptor than a practical stonemason, Nain is skilled enough at the latter, and would probably toss in his Dwarven two bits while Garstan and Stigend while they laboured, and would probably assist somewhat himself, while waiting for the fireplace to rise, so that he could "ornate" it.

I figure Nain would like Stigend, to begin with anyway, as a hard worker and level-headed man.

LMP- It had been my hope to get Nain to apologise to Saeryn and Eodwine before the Day was up. Mainly, I was waiting for the "council" to disperse... Since Nain is more of a recreational character than a "major" one, it's no biggie, but we should perhaps resolve where things stand at the moment.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Please all the others, send us your thoughts via this thread or PM of what do you think or how do you wish to relate (or not to relate) to our family during that month. That would help making the leap...

Saeryn will probably not interact much with Stigend beyond what is friendly or work-related. But I suspect that she will like Modtryth immediately as more than a mere acquaintance and she likes all children, so Cnebba is likely to find himself in the happy possession of more sweets than strictly necessary.