Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Third

[Kuruharan]

Not if he was bent on a self-destructive streak?

That's a difficult question.

It would probably depend on what sort of self-destructive streak.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Saurreg

Not if he was bent on a self-destructive streak?

In most societies subject to autocratic or strict heirarchical rule, there will be few prepared to speak out or act against the dicatates of the ruler. Generally, the majority will "fall into line" either out of fear or because they have lack understanding that their ruler is acting "wrongly".

Whether the submission through fear aspect would apply to Dwarves is a moot point, given their famed resistance to enslavement. Then again, Kuru paints a picture of a culture which adheres strongly to the demands of its heirarchical structure.

Tolkien does, however, show us that, within Middle-earth, people do not necessarily need to be evil in nature in order to serve evil. We see this, in particular, I think, with Sam's reflection on the dead Haradrim soldier and in Saruman's use of the Dunlendings' ancient grievance against Rohan in order to press them into service.

It is possible, for example, that those Dwarves who fought on Sauron's side in the Last Alliance did so believing that their cause was the "right" one, or because they were in thrall to their corrupted leaders, but that their loyalty to their own kind surmounted even this when it came to incidents such as Thror's death at the hands of Azog.

[Saurreg]

Hence my assertion that dwarves like any other race act in their own interests and security.

[Numenorean]

Great thread by the way Kuru -

What was the nature of Dwarves that fell into evil? In what way were they evil?

A trait that has the capacity for darkness, and indeed evil, that seems very common among Dwarves - from the Petty miners to the Lords and Kings - is their pride. As we know, JRRT often reveals in the Legendarium that pride is usually linked in some way or other to a fall, and often that fall is (or leads to) evil deeds.

Being created in secret and in direct contravention of Erus rules by Aulë may also offer some insight into their moral center. If we examine why Aulë created Dwarves the way he did, the Silm. states that:

"...Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth: and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding"

Is this renowned unyielding aspect of the Dwarven soul linked to their pride, and therefore to their capacity for evil? Maybe its an unfortunate consequence of being created by Aulë whilst he was concentrating on making them resistant to an entity as great and powerful as Melkor?

“I’m just curious about how this developed on a societal level.”

Being as isolated and insular as many of their communities seemed to be could have lead to an overdeveloped societal pride in their own Kingdom, House or Mansion, not too dissimilar to the destructive pride that Turgon and his Gondolindrim had for Gondolin perhaps?

"I think the reason why some of the evil Dwarves fought for Sauron at Dagorlad was probably because he hired them as mercenaries. "

Sounds very likely Kuru though I would maybe just throw the following statement about Sauron from the Silm. into the mix:

"In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people."

On the strength of that I think Sauron actually had quite a unique insight into the hearts of Dwarves. For although - as it is stated by JRRT - the Dwarves were not completely dominated by their Rings of Power, it would seem that they were all lead to misfortune and evil ends by them; what with four being consumed by Dragons and the remainder being physically retaken, most probably under torture, by Sauron himself.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Numenorean

Sounds very likely Kuru though I would maybe just throw the following statement about Sauron from the Silm. into the mix:
On the strength of that I think Sauron actually had quite a unique insight into the hearts of Dwarves. For although - as it is stated by JRRT - the Dwarves were not completely dominated by their Rings of Power, it would seem that they were all lead to misfortune and evil ends by them; what with four being consumed by Dragons and the remainder being physically retaken, most probably under torture, by Sauron himself.

The interesting thing to note then, is that of the Rings, the ones given to the Dwarves were ultimately least effective. Is this because, as an almost-kinsman, Sauron was blind to the faults that would turn a Dwarf to evil? Or is the simple fact that Sauron's rings were effective at all proof of his insight? Could a former Maia of Oromë have been able to make Rings that would affect the Dwarves in any way?

(Of course, the actual forging of the Seven Rings was done by the Eldar, for the most part, but 'twas certainly Sauron's creation, in regard to the potential to corrupt.)

Was there perhaps, one wonders a connection between Sauron's connection to Aulë and the siding of some of the Dwarves with him during the Last Alliance? We know that the Dwarves adhered strongly to "family". Is it plausible that Sauron played up his connection with Aulë (a sort of High Priest, perhaps?) to draw some of the Dwarves into his service?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Formy

Was there perhaps, one wonders a connection between Sauron's connection to Aulë and the siding of some of the Dwarves with him during the Last Alliance? We know that the Dwarves adhered strongly to "family". Is it plausible that Sauron played up his connection with Aulë (a sort of High Priest, perhaps?) to draw some of the Dwarves into his service?

I think that Sauron managed to lure the dwarves because as an ex-maia of Aulë's he probably knew the dwarves' hearts better. He knew what to offer them. Did he offer knowledge on craftsmanship (or were the dwarves too proud to accept knowledge that was not theirs?) or treasure (maybe the dwarves on his side were of less famous and wealthy households and families and envied the riches of the others?) or family, like Form mentioned?

To put it bluntly, Numenorean says that the main fault in dwarves is pride. I agree that dwarves are proud and that sometimes brings them trouble, but I'd say that greed is their worst sin/trait/fault. That can be read numerous times from TH and LotR. Galadriel tells Gimli that though he will achieve great wealth, that won't spoil him. That somehow makes me think that it was not unusual for a rich dwarf to get spoiled and greedy. Thoughts?

[Kuruharan]

Being created in secret and in direct contravention of Erus rules by Aulë may also offer some insight into their moral center.

It had never occurred to me until now that this may be the reason for a dwarf’s secretive nature.

On the strength of that I think Sauron actually had quite a unique insight into the hearts of Dwarves.

It is an interesting idea. However, there is a question about it regarding how much he explained to his maia regarding the dwarves. It might not have been much more than he told the elves of Valinor, which is the source material for what we have.

the Dwarves were not completely dominated by their Rings of Power, it would seem that they were all lead to misfortune and evil ends by them

This is undeniably true. However, the Rings were designed to lead everybody to an evil end. In the case of Men, the Rings performed admirably and as Sauron intended. In the case of the Dwarves, they did not work as Sauron intended. In the case of the Elves they didn’t really work at all. I think from this evidence, one might conclude that Sauron had more of an insight into Men than anybody else.

Was there perhaps, one wonders a connection between Sauron's connection to Aulë and the siding of some of the Dwarves with him during the Last Alliance? We know that the Dwarves adhered strongly to "family". Is it plausible that Sauron played up his connection with Aulë (a sort of High Priest, perhaps?) to draw some of the Dwarves into his service?

It is possible, but I don’t think that any dwarf could have been genuinely ignorant about the reality of the situation. The Dwarves would have been harder to fool than Men in many respects, if for no other reason that they did maintain contact with their kin in the West. The Western Dwarves probably knew from the Elves that a former servant of their Maker was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth. While we don’t know, it seems reasonable to surmise that this information would have been relayed eastwards, especially given the amount of time that passed. When Sauron made his return to evil in the Second Age he made some effort to conceal his identity (at least with the Elves). Had he told the Eastern Dwarves that he had some connection to Aüle, that probably would have set off alarm bells (or something) with them. On the other hand, it may not have bothered them very much. But if it didn’t bother them, there is no reason to suppose that Sauron would have gone to any trouble to conceal who he was, especially if the Eastern Dwarves had adopted Morgothian aspects into their culture.

There might have been some sort of polite diplomatic fiction along those lines, but I think that by the time of the Last Alliance, nobody that had the sort of historical lore to draw upon that the Dwarves possessed could have been in much doubt about how things stood.

That somehow makes me think that it was not unusual for a rich dwarf to get spoiled and greedy.

That is probably quite likely.

One other thing about the Rings…it seems likely that the Eastern Dwarves would have received their Rings from Sauron himself as the Eastern Houses probably had little contact with Elves (particularly not the Elves of Eregion).