Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Third

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Numenorean

Sounds very likely Kuru though I would maybe just throw the following statement about Sauron from the Silm. into the mix:
On the strength of that I think Sauron actually had quite a unique insight into the hearts of Dwarves. For although - as it is stated by JRRT - the Dwarves were not completely dominated by their Rings of Power, it would seem that they were all lead to misfortune and evil ends by them; what with four being consumed by Dragons and the remainder being physically retaken, most probably under torture, by Sauron himself.

The interesting thing to note then, is that of the Rings, the ones given to the Dwarves were ultimately least effective. Is this because, as an almost-kinsman, Sauron was blind to the faults that would turn a Dwarf to evil? Or is the simple fact that Sauron's rings were effective at all proof of his insight? Could a former Maia of Oromë have been able to make Rings that would affect the Dwarves in any way?

(Of course, the actual forging of the Seven Rings was done by the Eldar, for the most part, but 'twas certainly Sauron's creation, in regard to the potential to corrupt.)

Was there perhaps, one wonders a connection between Sauron's connection to Aulë and the siding of some of the Dwarves with him during the Last Alliance? We know that the Dwarves adhered strongly to "family". Is it plausible that Sauron played up his connection with Aulë (a sort of High Priest, perhaps?) to draw some of the Dwarves into his service?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Formy

Was there perhaps, one wonders a connection between Sauron's connection to Aulë and the siding of some of the Dwarves with him during the Last Alliance? We know that the Dwarves adhered strongly to "family". Is it plausible that Sauron played up his connection with Aulë (a sort of High Priest, perhaps?) to draw some of the Dwarves into his service?

I think that Sauron managed to lure the dwarves because as an ex-maia of Aulë's he probably knew the dwarves' hearts better. He knew what to offer them. Did he offer knowledge on craftsmanship (or were the dwarves too proud to accept knowledge that was not theirs?) or treasure (maybe the dwarves on his side were of less famous and wealthy households and families and envied the riches of the others?) or family, like Form mentioned?

To put it bluntly, Numenorean says that the main fault in dwarves is pride. I agree that dwarves are proud and that sometimes brings them trouble, but I'd say that greed is their worst sin/trait/fault. That can be read numerous times from TH and LotR. Galadriel tells Gimli that though he will achieve great wealth, that won't spoil him. That somehow makes me think that it was not unusual for a rich dwarf to get spoiled and greedy. Thoughts?

[Kuruharan]

Being created in secret and in direct contravention of Erus rules by Aulë may also offer some insight into their moral center.

It had never occurred to me until now that this may be the reason for a dwarf’s secretive nature.

On the strength of that I think Sauron actually had quite a unique insight into the hearts of Dwarves.

It is an interesting idea. However, there is a question about it regarding how much he explained to his maia regarding the dwarves. It might not have been much more than he told the elves of Valinor, which is the source material for what we have.

the Dwarves were not completely dominated by their Rings of Power, it would seem that they were all lead to misfortune and evil ends by them

This is undeniably true. However, the Rings were designed to lead everybody to an evil end. In the case of Men, the Rings performed admirably and as Sauron intended. In the case of the Dwarves, they did not work as Sauron intended. In the case of the Elves they didn’t really work at all. I think from this evidence, one might conclude that Sauron had more of an insight into Men than anybody else.

Was there perhaps, one wonders a connection between Sauron's connection to Aulë and the siding of some of the Dwarves with him during the Last Alliance? We know that the Dwarves adhered strongly to "family". Is it plausible that Sauron played up his connection with Aulë (a sort of High Priest, perhaps?) to draw some of the Dwarves into his service?

It is possible, but I don’t think that any dwarf could have been genuinely ignorant about the reality of the situation. The Dwarves would have been harder to fool than Men in many respects, if for no other reason that they did maintain contact with their kin in the West. The Western Dwarves probably knew from the Elves that a former servant of their Maker was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth. While we don’t know, it seems reasonable to surmise that this information would have been relayed eastwards, especially given the amount of time that passed. When Sauron made his return to evil in the Second Age he made some effort to conceal his identity (at least with the Elves). Had he told the Eastern Dwarves that he had some connection to Aüle, that probably would have set off alarm bells (or something) with them. On the other hand, it may not have bothered them very much. But if it didn’t bother them, there is no reason to suppose that Sauron would have gone to any trouble to conceal who he was, especially if the Eastern Dwarves had adopted Morgothian aspects into their culture.

There might have been some sort of polite diplomatic fiction along those lines, but I think that by the time of the Last Alliance, nobody that had the sort of historical lore to draw upon that the Dwarves possessed could have been in much doubt about how things stood.

That somehow makes me think that it was not unusual for a rich dwarf to get spoiled and greedy.

That is probably quite likely.

One other thing about the Rings…it seems likely that the Eastern Dwarves would have received their Rings from Sauron himself as the Eastern Houses probably had little contact with Elves (particularly not the Elves of Eregion).

[Numenorean]

Formy -

The interesting thing to note then, is that of the Rings, the ones given to the Dwarves were ultimately least effective. Is this because, as an almost-kinsman, Sauron was blind to the faults that would turn a Dwarf to evil? Or is the simple fact that Sauron's rings were effective at all proof of his insight?

Hmm, I reckon that either through his Aulëan heritage or via his own dark observations, Sauron had a fairly firm understanding of what could lead or turn a dwarf onto an evil path, it was the complete domination of their wills that he could not fathom. However, just accepting one of the Seven was enough to assure a dwarfs doom, in this respect Sauron was akin to his old lord Melkor in that whatever they could not utterly dominate, they ruined.

Thinlómien -

I'd say that greed is their worst sin/trait/fault. That can be read numerous times from TH and LotR

Good point, avarice is indeed a potent and negative force in the Dwarven psyche, linked to but not entirely dependant on their pride, and when we read (in LoTR Appendix A III) that:

"The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them."

It could even be argued that Sauron was at least semi-successful in his Dwarven Ring lore, as some power and influence over the bearers of the Seven is surely better than none at all. The last two bearers of the last of the Seven to be retaken by Sauron, Thrór and Thráin, did not, it would seem, remain entirely uninfluenced by the Ring. Intriguingly it is said in the LoTR Appendix A III regarding Thrórs motivation to single handedly attempt to regain Moria that:

“He was a little crazed perhaps with age and misfortune and long brooding on the splendour of Moria in his forefathers’ days; or the Ring, it may be, was turning to evil now that its master was awake, driving him to folly and destruction.”

And of the last bearer, Thráin, shortly before he went forth into the Wild and met his doom in Saurons dungeons at Dol Guldur, the following is said:

“It was therefore perhaps partly by the malice of the Ring that Thráin after some years became restless and discontented. The lust for gold was ever in his mind.”

Kuru -

One other thing about the Rings…it seems likely that the Eastern Dwarves would have received their Rings from Sauron himself as the Eastern Houses probably had little contact with Elves (particularly not the Elves of Eregion).

Interestingly enough, (and only on a slight tangent) the Dwarves of Durin’s Folk believed this Ring of Thráins was the first of the Seven to be made, and that it was handed over personally by the Elven-smiths, specifically Celebrimbor, to King Durin III of Khazad-dûm himself.

Kuru -

In the case of Men, the Rings performed admirably and as Sauron intended. In the case of the Dwarves, they did not work as Sauron intended. In the case of the Elves they didn’t really work at all. I think from this evidence, one might conclude that Sauron had more of an insight into Men than anybody else.

Don't forget that there are strong examples of Men who resisted Saurons influence (Amandil, Elendil etc) so his insight into the hearts of the Atani was by no means complete. I would agree though that the race of Men – generally - are more corruptible and susceptible to Saurons evil guiles, though maybe thats more to do with Mans inherent weaknesses rather than Saurons strength of insight. He may have known decidedly more about Dwarven lust and motivations, but their inherent secrecy, stubbornness and indomitable will neutralised the potency of his attempts at manipulation thus, as you say, his Dwarven Ring lore did not work as Sauron intended.

[Boromir88]

but I'd say that greed is their worst sin/trait/fault.~Thinlomien

For 99.9% of the dwarves, I agree, but then we have Gimli...

'No you do not understand,' said Gimli. 'No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness. None of Durin's race would mine those caves for stones or or, not if diamonds and gold could be got there. Do you cut down groves of blossoming trees in the springtime for firewood? We would tend these glades of flowering stone, not quarry them.'~The Road to Isengard

'But if hope should not fail, then I say to you, Gimli son of Gloin, that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion.'~Farewell to Lorien

So, I've always wondered, what makes Gimli different from the rest of his greedy dwarf brethren? Or are there more dwarves like Gimli where gold and riches hold no influence over them?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, I've always wondered, what makes Gimli different from the rest of his greedy dwarf brethren? Or are there more dwarves like Gimli where gold and riches hold no influence over them?

I'd say that it was pretty much the same as with our (human's) own capacity to behave "wrongly". Some Dawrves would be more susceptible to, and more prone to display, their negative traits than others.

By no means were all Dwarves greedy to the point of evil, but few were probably as free of the Dwarven lust for gold and riches as Gimli. Bilbo's companions were, by and large, a fairly likeable bunch, but they were certainly not perfect (indeed, neither was Gimli). We might assume that they were fairly representatvie of the majority of Dwarvenkind, or at least those of the Western lines.

[Kuruharan]

However, just accepting one of the Seven was enough to assure a dwarfs doom, in this respect Sauron was akin to his old lord Melkor in that whatever they could not utterly dominate, they ruined.

I’m afraid I have to disagree with this. Many King’s of Durin’s Folk possessed their ring and we don’t know of anything happening to them personally. I’d have to assume that kings of other Houses had similar experiences.

By no means were all Dwarves greedy to the point of evil, but few were probably as free of the Dwarven lust for gold and riches as Gimli. Bilbo's companions were, by and large, a fairly likeable bunch, but they were certainly not perfect (indeed, neither was Gimli). We might assume that they were fairly representatvie of the majority of Dwarvenkind, or at least those of the Western lines.

It is a bit of a pity that we don’t have more information about the Great Dwarves in the First Age. The most memorable experience the Elves had with the Firebeards of Nogrod was not…errr…positive. However, the Broadbeams were portrayed in a generally more positive (or at least agreeable light). I’m sure that somebody will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that Azaghâl was the only named great dwarf about whom we possess any personal information. We are told of Telchar and Gamil Zirak, but don’t know what they were like.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, I've always wondered, what makes Gimli different from the rest of his greedy dwarf brethren? Or are there more dwarves like Gimli where gold and riches hold no influence over them?

Could it be that Gloin, along with the rest the thirteen dwarves, saw first hand of what the corruption of gold had done to thier leader Thorin? This may have had some affect on Gloin, and so he might have tought Gimli not to love gold as other dwarves had.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Could it be that Gloin, along with the rest the thirteen dwarves, saw first hand of what the corruption of gold had done to thier leader Thorin? This may have had some affect on Gloin, and so he might have tought Gimli not to love gold as other dwarves had.

Even if that matches Glóin's personality, which I'm not sure is borne out, that still wouldn't fly. Although young, Gimli was a fully grown Dwarf by the time of the Quest for Erebor--too young to be one of Thorin's companions, but much too old to be considered a child anymore, and thus not very malleable in all probability.