Saruman for or against Sauron?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

To me the word 'master' is at the centre of this. I do not think anyone apart from Sauron could have 'mastered' the Ring in the fullest sense of the word. Only Sauron could use the Ring truly wilfully. Others may have been able to make at least intelligent use of the Ring - intelligent as being opposed to merely using it to 'hide'. That's something that I'm sure none of us could argue against - that's part of why the Ring is so dangerous and seductive. It makes people think they could truly 'master' it, when in reality they would never be acting with their own will.

I do think that if say Gandalf had used the Ring then Sauron could have been, if not totally destroyed, then at least fatally harmed (in as far as Maiar can be 'fatally harmed' ). I also think that Saruman could have had as much a chance, such as there was, with the Ring as any of his contemporaries.

The LOTR does appear to give a lot of indirect pointers to the fact that a character with a great power of their own COULD wield the Ring & challenge Sauron, & even be capable of casting him from his throne, whilst the challenger would become the new dark lord.

Examples are The Council of Elrond where Elrond speaks of his fear of wielding the Ring, when Gandalf refuses to claim the ring from Frodo whilst still in the Shire, & of course when Frodo offers the Ring to Galadriel. All of these 3 characters show enormous signs of distress when the thought of the Ring being offered to them is mentioned. They all mentioned that should they wield the Ring, they themselves would then become like the Dark Lord Sauron. An interesting point is made by Elrond, wisest of loremasters, when he considers Saruman as an example, stating that by using the arts of the enemy COULD lead to the overthrowing of Sauron.

It is comments like these which paint a picture inside some readers that a character with a great power of their own, & a strong will, could wield the Ring with time & use the Ring to challenge Sauron - that was Sauron's greatest fear, according to Gandalf when he reappears in the White Rider chapter.

So after giving all these hints, all of a sudden we must accept that nobody but perhaps Gandalf may be expected to wield the Ring? It seems unlikely, but then again these comments may be taken to imply that Gandalf was the favourite of all the Wise to be able to wield the Ring (i.e. the one with the best chance of overthrowing Sauron by using the Ring), but that it was still possible for others to do it. That is as near as the truth as far as I am concerned.

[Kuruharan]

It is a question of 'will'. Aragorn's will was stronger than Saruman's

This makes my case stronger.

Aragorn not only did not fall to him he actually proved that his will was stronger than Sauron's. Will is the essential element in controlling the Ring. Wresting control of the Palantir (or anything else) from Sauron was something no-one else in Middle-earth could have done.

Far be it from me to quote letter 246 again, but…

In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.
-Letter 246 emphasis mine

Aragorn was able to use the Stone because it belonged to him and answered more readily to his claims of possession. A fact that seems to have somehow escaped most of you is that the Ring belonged to Sauron and wanted to return to him. As we saw throughout the story, it was willing to try anything on anybody to get back to its Master. It wanted other people to think they could master it because it would get back to Sauron all the quicker. In any contest of strength over the Ring between Aragorn and Sauron, the deck would have been impossibly stacked in Sauron’s favor.

Aragorn may not have claimed he could master the Ring, but Gandalf, in the Last Debate, clearly states that he could.

After reading Lalwendë’s post, I think I understand part of the problem here…

To me the word 'master' is at the centre of this. I do not think anyone apart from Sauron could have 'mastered' the Ring in the fullest sense of the word. Only Sauron could use the Ring truly wilfully. Others may have been able to make at least intelligent use of the Ring - intelligent as being opposed to merely using it to 'hide'.

Anybody could attempt to use the Ring. Aragorn could certainly try. Tolkien didn’t say that one couldn’t use the Ring, the question is could they do so without ensuring Sauron’s ultimate triumph. Going back to the passage in question…

For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strength enough to wield it
-The Last Debate

Gandalf did not say they could master the Ring. Wielding and mastering are not the same thing. If you wield the Ring without mastering it you will lose. Aragorn could wield it, but he could not truly master it and if he tried he was destined to fail.

And I can hear you even now typing away something to the effect of, “Well, why was Sauron so afraid?”

He had lost the War of the Last Alliance even with the Ring. His assault on Gondor had failed. There was cause for concern. As we saw with his earlier belief that the Ring had been destroyed, he doesn’t seem to know all the things that might happen in different circumstances with the Ring. He probably couldn’t be sure what would happen if somebody made a serious attempt to claim the Ring. We can’t say what the exact effect of this would have been.

Tolkien’s letter was written from the perspective of authorial omniscience. Simply put, Tolkien had knowledge his characters did not.

I think that if another commentator had made that statement about only Gandalf being able to master the Ring you would have laughed them out of court, using the same arguments & quotes that the rest of us have been using, because it doesn't fit the facts.

But this is not another commentator, this is the author of the works themselves. I am not going to assume that I know or understand his works better than he did.

They all mentioned that should they wield the Ring, they themselves would then become like the Dark Lord Sauron.

This is only what the characters themselves thought. Boromir and Sam also thought the exact same thing at one point or another, yet I don’t hear anybody clamoring for their induction into the Hall of Potential Successful Challengers to Sauron. If the Ring was capable of deluding Boromir and Sam, why can’t it be capable of similarly deluding Elrond, Gandalf, and Galadriel? I think the temptation for them would be even more extreme (hence their distress).

[davem]

Ok, I accept that if you are prepared to completely alter the characters' motivations, attitudes, intelligence level & general honesty, ignore clear & implied authorial statements within the text itself, are willing to invent new motivations for characters which are the opposite of the motives which they are clearly stated in the book to have, make characters renowned for their wisdom into idiots who don't know their Ainur from their Eldar, & are happy to accept Gandalf as a moral coward who would send Frodo & Sam to their deaths (by lying to them & telling them he himself could not master the Ring & would wnd up enslaved to it), in order to destroy something that he himself could have 'mastered', then certainly you can make one line in one private letter (which as far as we know he was never challenged on) 'fit' with the story.

[Kuruharan]

None of that is the least bit necessary to reconcile the letter to the story. Let’s take a look at each of the characters one at a time.

Elrond

He says…

“Alas , no,” said Elrond. “We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron’s throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so. I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it.”
-The Council of Elrond

First, he does not say it would be a certainty that one of the Wise could overthrow Sauron in this manner. In fact, this passage does not really suggest that it is possible. Elrond is speaking speculatively here. He is explaining to Boromir why it is not even worthwhile to consider this as a viable alternative. Elrond wanted to utterly defeat this evil so it could never come back again or pervert anything else. Whether or not Elrond could have mastered the Ring doesn’t seem to have much to do with the underlying motivation of the character nor is Elrond lying. Whether or not he could have mastered the Ring, Elrond realized that the outcome wouldn’t be good for anybody. I see no problem reconciling letter 246 with the story here.

Galadriel

She says…

Galadriel laughed with a sudden clear laugh. “Wise the Lady Galadriel may be,” she said, “yet here she has met her match in courtesy. Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting. You begin to see with a keen eye. I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. Of many long years I had pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands, and behold! it was brought within my grasp. The evil that was devised long ago works in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or falls. Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his Ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?
“And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”
She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.
“I pass the test,” she said. “I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.”
-Mirror of Galadriel

This is a character speaking. She is not omniscient. While there can be no doubt that she is honestly expressing her desires and what she thinks might happen, these are just her desires. Anybody can desire all sorts of things that won’t happen no matter how hard they try. Just because Galadriel says these things does not mean that she is speaking with Tolkien’s voice and that they would come about. There are also some other possibilities here.

Speaking directly about Galadriel, Tolkien said (in his own voice)…

In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council. Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.
-Letter 246

This is quite complimentary. Tolkien implies that Galadriel knows that she is being lied to. She could be relating the visions the Ring was planting in her brain. She could even have been engaging in some mockery of both Sauron and the Ring in this passage. However, I think she may have struggled a little more with this decision than, for example, Elrond and Gandalf.

In other respects she is very similar to Elrond in her desire to see this evil destroyed forever. Just because it would have been impossible for her to successfully challenge Sauron by using the Ring doesn’t diminish the fact that she refused temptation. I see no difficulties reconciling the character of Galadriel between the letter and the books.

Aragorn

I have to admit that I don’t see that there is a whole lot more to say about him in this context. He didn’t lay any claim to the Ring at all and when Frodo attempted to give it to him at the Council of Elrond he specifically denied it. He won a contest of wills against Sauron over his own property, but Aragorn’s claim of ownership gave him an advantage. Sauron’s fears of Aragorn likely stem from the fact that Aragorn’s ancestors defeated him even when he had the Ring. I think it unsurprising that this alone would cause Sauron concern.

Saruman

Admittedly, this horse has been pretty well beaten to death already, so just a few high points…

Saruman’s will was ultimately proven to have been weaker than Gandalf’s, Aragorn’s, and Denethor’s. Denethor is particularly telling as nobody that I’ve ever seen has put him in the Hall of Potential Successful Challengers to Sauron.

Sauron was able to play Saruman like a well-tuned zither. There is no particular reason to believe that Saruman could have been able to enslave/compel/fool the Ring (which was part of Sauron) into serving him and not betray him to Sauron at the first convenient opportunity.

The fact that Saruman was deluded by his greed into falling and chasing after something that would never be in his power to have only makes the character more tragic and the story more interesting, in my opinion.

The primary issue here appears to be that people just don’t want to give up some of their ideas about him.

Gandalf

are happy to accept Gandalf as a moral coward who would send Frodo & Sam to their deaths (by lying to them & telling them he himself could not master the Ring & would wnd up enslaved to it), in order to destroy something that he himself could have 'mastered'

What exactly is it you are advocating here? You seem to be arguing that, in order to save Frodo a lot of trouble, he should have just mastered the Ring and been done with it. I’m not sure this would have been a happy outcome for anybody. The very fact that he, who everyone agrees could have taken the Ring and successfully challenged Sauron, did not claim the Ring only shows his virtue in its most positive light. He wanted to overthrow tyranny, all tyranny, including the potential for his own. Why he should be accused of moral cowardice on these grounds is beyond me.

All the characters in the story were trying to trying to preserve their freedom and overthrow a terrible tyranny. Whether they did or did not believe that they themselves could have mastered the Ring and set themselves up in Sauron’s place doesn’t, in my view, reflect one way or the other upon their underlying motivations. What they did try was to use Sauron’s fears about somebody else using the Ring against him. (It is interesting to note that in several cases the mere thought of the Ring just being in the possession of another was enough to drive individuals into varying states of frenzy. There is every reason to think that Sauron himself would be consumed with a terrible Ring-lust just for its own sake. It was literally a part of him gone missing). In Gandalf’s case, his fears were completely justified. It may also be true that he feared Gandalf far more than Aragorn. That may even be likely. It would certainly be in keeping with Gandalf’s personality if at the Last Debate he was simply displaying modesty in downplaying the fears he awoke in Sauron and making Aragorn look greater. Gandalf was also thinking about the future of Gondor, which Aragorn embodied. Have to impress the future underlings and all that.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This is only what the characters themselves thought. Boromir and Sam also thought the exact same thing at one point or another, yet I don’t hear anybody clamoring for their induction into the Hall of Potential Successful Challengers to Sauron. If the Ring was capable of deluding Boromir and Sam, why can’t it be capable of similarly deluding Elrond, Gandalf, and Galadriel? I think the temptation for them would be even more extreme (hence their distress).

Boromir & Sam cannot be likened to the loremasters in this manner, as they do not have a great power of their own, & are not strong willed enough. And I believe that what Elrond said, that by using the arts of the enemy one of great power could ''overthrow'' (& not just challenge) Sauron & take his seat on his throne to become yet another Dark Lord is not just a mere thought or prediction, it is the truth. Elrond afterall is greatest of all the loremasters, & is telling it as it really is - the Ring is a threat to the Wise as they may seek to use the Ring to overthrow Sauron & become new darklords themselves, which is Sauron's worst fear (hence the power of Mordor falling on Minas Tirith like a storm for this very reason, as told by Gandalf in the White Rider).

Sauron knows (& he should do - he is the lord of the Ring afterall!), therefore, that he CAN be overthrown by a power such as Gandalf if the Ring is used against him, or otherwise Tolkein is not making much sense in his works & is contradicting himself to an extent - maybe a case of Tolkien juggling with his own ideas but not being explicit enough about them perhaps (hence this debate!). I believe the former to be the case, however, although I would not put Aragorn in the category - why could he be able to wield the Ring if Isildur could not? He has no great power of his own or the knowhow to be able to unlock the power of the Ring as far as I am concerned (& I bet someone will try & qoute this & comment on it with something like ''you are just stating your thoughts'' - the answer to that is, well so are you because you are only stating YOUR interpretations of the book & the Letters!!!).

This thread was about whether Saruman was for or against Sauron. It seems that in the end there was no friendship between them, only a link to see what each other was up to, & how one could get information out of each other to achieve the same goal. I am a little suprised that Sauron even bothered with Saruman, as I would have thought he would have been too proud & ignorant, having great power & resources of destruction at his disposal. It just shows that Sauron was a legend in playing mind games to control the will of others.

[Kuruharan]

And I believe that what Elrond said, that by using the arts of the enemy one of great power could ''overthrow'' (& not just challenge) Sauron & take his seat on his throne to become yet another Dark Lord is not just a mere thought or prediction, it is the truth. Elrond afterall is greatest of all the loremasters, & is telling it as it really is

We may just have to disagree on that, as that is an interpretation of the text. I believe my interpretation is more in line with what Tolkien wrote elsewhere and Tolkien’s writings are the standard I go by.

Sauron knows (& he should do - he is the lord of the Ring afterall!),

Ahhh, yes…let’s talk about what Sauron “knows” about the Ring…

And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.
-The Shadow of the Past

…evidently not much. If he didn’t know that he would have been utterly destroyed by the destruction of the Ring, I don’t think we can place ultimate reliance upon his supposed knowledge of who could or could not use the Ring to challenge him.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

We may just have to disagree on that, as that is an interpretation of the text. I believe my interpretation is more in line with what Tolkien wrote elsewhere and Tolkien’s writings are the standard I go by.



Ahhh, yes…let’s talk about what Sauron “knows” about the Ring…



…evidently not much. If he didn’t know that he would have been utterly destroyed by the destruction of the Ring, I don’t think we can place ultimate reliance upon his supposed knowledge of who could or could not use the Ring to challenge him.

One thing Sauron probably did know - the Ring could be used to overthrow & replace him as Darklord of Mordor by another mighty power. Otherwise what was the point in going after Gondor in such a hurried fashion if the Ring could not be used against him? He bent is power towards Gondor for great fear that the Ring would be sent there to be wielded as a weapon against him.

If Sauron did know that the Ring could not be used against him, surely he would have bent all his guile to the hunting of the Ring, even after the initial attempt by the Nine Black Riders had failed? He would have already known that Mordor forces were far too strong for Gondor & Rohan, & could afford to use his armies to lure the Ring to him again, surely his uttermost desire above all others. The only other way that things could be explained is if Sauron didn't know whether his Ring could be used against him, but judging by his choices & actions it seems as though he thought it likely that he could be defeated if it were used against him.

Infact, Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond & even Sauron generally believed the Ring could be used to overthrow the Dark Lord. Although we cannot be absolutely certain of this, one would have to agree that it would be likely that Sauron could be overthrown by another power with the Ring. Aside from this being Sauron's great fear, none of the above characters speak of there being a chance that by wielding the Ring they would likely as not be fooled by the lure of the Ring's power to such an extent that they would just end up succumbing to Sauron in one way or other. The fear amongst these characters was that ''another Sauron'' would form, rather than the Ring wielder entering the service of the Darklord after being corrupted by the Ring.

[Boromir88]

…evidently not much. If he didn’t know that he would have been utterly destroyed by the destruction of the Ring, I don’t think we can place ultimate reliance upon his supposed knowledge of who could or could not use the Ring to challenge him.

I think Mansun brings up some good points...

In Tolkien's letter to Milton Waldman, he makes clear that the Ring could be used against Sauron:

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished.' Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.

And it's obvious he feared this, instead of somebody being sent to Mordor to destroy the Ring:

This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effor (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.

I do agree that there is a difference between 'mastering' the ring' and 'wielding' it. To master the Ring, would be to break the allegiance and tie between Sauron and the Ring. It would break the 'rapport' and Sauron would most of his power and be diminished to a spirit incapable of reforming again. Then Lalwende brings up a good point also, can one truly master the Ring? Because even if you get rid of Sauron for good, Sauron's work will continue, as the person who mastered the Ring will in time become another Dark Lord. So, the Ring can be mastered in the sense that Sauron is no longer the ring's 'Master' but the Ring has a new 'master' a new person (say Gandalf for instance) will be the new 'Lord of the Rings.' But it can't be mastered in the sense that nothing good can come from it. The Ring will be the 'master' in the end.

To wield the Ring, would be to just carry it and use it against Sauron. I think wielding goes more along the lines of using the Ring and gathering a large army to go and overthrow Sauron. This is what it appears Sauron feared the most, especially with Aragorn being Isildur's heir. He feared that Aragorn had the Ring and was coming with an army to overthrow him. This is also what Boromir and Sam had envisioned, 'armies would flock to their banner's' and especially Boromir it would give him the power to 'Command.' Sauron was defeated when he had the Ring, so I don't see why he couldn't be defeated without it, in the hands of someone else. But, to 'wield' the Ring wouldn't be the same as 'mastering' the Ring. I don't think 'wielding' the Ring would be breaking that bond between the Ring and Sauron. You are just using it as a weapon against him, not in fact mastering it's powers. So, to use the Ring against Sauron in this manner, Sauron would be able to return, as the Ring's powers would still exist and be tied to Sauron.

[Kuruharan]

Infact, Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond & even Sauron generally believed the Ring could be used to overthrow the Dark Lord. Although we cannot be absolutely certain of this, one would have to agree that it would be likely that Sauron could be overthrown by another power with the Ring. Aside from this being Sauron's great fear, none of the above characters speak of there being a chance that by wielding the Ring they would likely as not be fooled by the lure of the Ring's power to such an extent that they would just end up succumbing to Sauron in one way or other. The fear amongst these characters was that ''another Sauron'' would form, rather than the Ring wielder entering the service of the Darklord after being corrupted by the Ring.

All of this is still just talking about what characters "knew."
And the Ring was certainly eager to betray everybody else, why couldn't it betray one of them?

If Sauron did know that the Ring could not be used against him, surely he would have bent all his guile to the hunting of the Ring, even after the initial attempt by the Nine Black Riders had failed? He would have already known that Mordor forces were far too strong for Gondor & Rohan, & could afford to use his armies to lure the Ring to him again, surely his uttermost desire above all others.

Isn't that what he did, in a way?

The only other way that things could be explained is if Sauron didn't know whether his Ring could be used against him, but judging by his choices & actions it seems as though he thought it likely that he could be defeated if it were used against him.

I'm afraid you're not making a whole lot of sense here. At first you say that if Sauron thought the Ring was no threat to him then he would have spent more time hunting it but then you say he would have tried to use his armies to get the Ring back. Considering that he thought Gandalf or Aragorn had the Ring (which is a bizarre thing for him to think because if he thought they were going to try and master it, you'd think he'd believe he'd have sensed their efforts to do so) didn't he sort of use his armies to try and get the Ring back? Which is it you are arguing for?

It would break the 'rapport' and Sauron would most of his power and be diminished to a spirit incapable of reforming again. Then Lalwende brings up a good point also, can one truly master the Ring? Because even if you get rid of Sauron for good, Sauron's work will continue, as the person who mastered the Ring will in time become another Dark Lord.

A) It seems to me that you would have to master the Ring in order to defeat Sauron by this method. If you don’t the Ring will betray you to Sauron because the Ring would not have forgotten who it really belonged to.

Also…

If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.

It seems that mastering the Ring is part and parcel of utterly breaking Sauron.

B) This is another reason why the Wise didn’t consider trying this to be a viable alternative.

I think wielding goes more along the lines of using the Ring and gathering a large army to go and overthrow Sauron.

I have to admit that I’ve never particularly understood how the Ring was especially helpful in this regard. It can’t create soldiers out of thin air and how does it entice people to follow someone else to their death they know little about and have no history of loyalty toward.

I don't see why he couldn't be defeated without it, in the hands of someone else.

-and-

Sauron would be able to return, as the Ring's powers would still exist and be tied to Sauron.

Theoretically (ignoring the military incapacity of the West for this line of thought, even though I think this is a big part of the reason why the Ring had to be mastered in order for Sauon to be defeated in this way) it might be possible to militarily defeat Sauron. However, I agree that Sauron would not be broken and that he would come back. And I’m not sure the Ring would be exactly helpful in this enterprise. I think it would be apt for betrayal.