Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Originally Posted by alatar

Mayhap is, mayhap not. My point, besides a tongue-in-cheek attempt to get someone to buy me not only the Middle Earth video game but some super cool hardware, was to show that, possibly, there was a way to glean more information about the Gandalf versus Witch-King debate. Having formerly been a scientist, or at least having played on TV, I tend to see the world in a particular way. I would like to see Gandalf (book or movie) square off against the Witch-King, and see what happens (note that I would prefer to have control over as many variables as possible in an attempt to rule out other factors affecting the contest, like roosters, Rohan and Pip). Maybe run the event 10 times to make sure of the results. However, whether the books or the movie, I cannot do this as it is a one time event - it happened, no data, that's it - and so was looking for another way.

Hence the game post.

Now, it's possible that the game programmers know nothing of Tolkien , and care nothing about the maia or man's ranking in Arda. So Gandalf could win or lose on any given play. Ted Sandyman may or may not be able to best the Balrog, and Rosie Cotton could give Galadriel fits. In that case, there would be no information. We'd be back shouting across the trenches.

If the programmers assigned some type of ranking to the characters so that the most probable outcome were that some creatures would almost always best others (again, single combat, no other help, etc), then we would like to find out why they ranked said characters higher than others. Was it whim, the programmer's personal feelings (i.e. if it were me, Gandalf would be able to whoop three Witch-Kings with one staff tied behind his back), or was some guidance/information provided by some outside source? Was this source linked to the Tolkien estate or to Peter Jackson/WETA/New Line? If so, then there is new information available that would help us in this discussion. Can we get that information? I'm not sure. Someone might be able to get hold of a programmer/spokesperson for the game and see if s/he can help. I volunteered to use my analytical skills with the game to see what I could find out. I didn't think that purchasing the game myself was ethical, as..., well, I'll get back to you on that one .

So, you see that, though I used a chirpy tone, I actually had a serious question in my original post, which I will restate: Do the games, based on the Peter Jackson movies, contain any new information regarding the Gandalf versus Witch-King debate? Right now, as we have none, any information would be something other than forum members' opinions.

And by the by, anyone who wants to get a real taste of my in-depth serious dissertation-style posting tone, well, stop by the SbS.



I did, and though I read the walkthrough for the Gandalf on the Wall of Minas Tirith level (of the EA Return of the King video game), I still can't finish that level. That then puts me a level or two below idiot, and I would wholeheartedly agree - I used to be so good at games, then I got slow. Tis surely a shame.



I can see some supervillian in the future's sole goal, not to take over the world but to get the last word, once and for all, in the Gandalf versus Witch-King debate.

Cape or no cape?

Lets get back to the main theme of the thread, the titanic confrontation between Gandalf vs WK which promised so much but delivered so little in the ROTK, rather than turning it into a Punch & Judy thread.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Lets get back to the main theme of the thread, the titanic confrontation between Gandalf vs WK which promised so much but delivered so little in the ROTK, rather than turning it into a Punch & Judy thread.

The movie messed up. The incident in the book is essential. Gandalf turns from the confrontation with Angmar in order to save Faramir. He does the right thing, because he is the only one who can save Faramir. It is an act of trust in Eru, that in the end a good act will be rewarded. Frodo makes the same choice with Gollum if you think about it. Gandalf rejects the belief that the end justifies the means, that it would be ok to let Faramir be killed in order to win the battle. To desert Faramir would have been immoral. Gandalf had no choice if he was to stay true to himself & what he was fighting for.

Originally Posted by davem

The movie messed up. The incident in the book is essential. Gandalf turns from the confrontation with Angmar in order to save Faramir. He does the right thing, because he is the only one who can save Faramir. It is an act of trust in Eru, that in the end a good act will be rewarded. Frodo makes the same choice with Gollum if you think about it. Gandalf rejects the belief that the end justifies the means, that it would be ok to let Faramir be killed in order to win the battle. To desert Faramir would have been immoral. Gandalf had no choice if he was to stay true to himself & what he was fighting for.

True, but in the book Gandalf was all too aware that the WK could not only kill more people if he was not confronted, he could even bring ruin on Minas Tirith itself since knobody else at the time had the courage to challenge him. If Gandalf had gone on to challenge the WK, it may have been that Theoden would have still lived, & by Gandalf halting the domination of the WK on the battlefield, that in itself would have at least given the soldiers of Gondor & Rohan more belief that victory was still possible. I would therefore not have blamed Gandalf for going after the WK in this situation, as Gandalf could not have just relied on hoping that a prophecy would avail. A prophecy is just that - it is a prediction & not necessarily a means to an end.

The film however does not really make out that the WK is critical to the success of Mordor, aside from being the General. If Gandalf had taken him out, Mordor would still have been well in charge of the battle of the Pelennor fields.

[Essex]

as DaveM said, Gandalf took the moral choice (as I pointed out about 6 months or so, but great minds think alike Dave, LOL!)

Mansun, if Gandalf had gone after the Witch King and defeated him (sending him packing, but not killing him as the Propehcy foretold) - then Middle-earth would have been lost....

Refer to my earlier posts on this - this thread is a very good read but I'm afraid it's mostly all been said before...........

[davem]

Originally Posted by Essex

as DaveM said, Gandalf took the moral choice (as I pointed out about 6 months or so, but great minds think alike Dave, LOL!)

Mansun, if Gandalf had gone after the Witch King and defeated him (sending him packing, but not killing him as the Propehcy foretold) - then Middle-earth would have been lost....

Refer to my earlier posts on this - this thread is a very good read but I'm afraid it's mostly all been said before...........

If you think I've got the time or the inclination to read every post on this thread you you've got another think coming....

However I have repped you for your insight

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Lets get back to the main theme of the thread, the titanic confrontation between Gandalf vs WK which promised so much but delivered so little in the ROTK, rather than turning it into a Punch & Judy thread.

Let's let people post what they would like to post on this thread, provided that it remains within the forum principles and tangentially relevant to the subject at hand, shall we?

If you do not wish to read particular posts, you do not have to. As I have said previously, please leave the modding to the mods. That's kind of what we are here for ...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Let's let people post what they would like to post on this thread, provided that it remains within the forum principles and tangentially relevant to the subject at hand, shall we?

If you do not wish to read particular posts, you do not have to. As I have said previously, please leave the modding to the mods. That's kind of what we are here for ...

Where did The Saucepan Man name originate from? Sounds like a superhero who could take on the Witch-King & wallop him with the pan while it is still hot. No need for Gandalf to take on the WK afterall!

Originally Posted by Essex

as DaveM said, Gandalf took the moral choice (as I pointed out about 6 months or so, but great minds think alike Dave, LOL!)

Mansun, if Gandalf had gone after the Witch King and defeated him (sending him packing, but not killing him as the Propehcy foretold) - then Middle-earth would have been lost....

Refer to my earlier posts on this - this thread is a very good read but I'm afraid it's mostly all been said before...........

Gandalf took the moral choice? Of course he did - but that does not mean it was necessarily the right choice. At the time, the choice was finely balanced, Gandalf was undecided & his instinct was to protect Minas Tirith from the WK, & for that knobody could blame him if he did go after the WK. In the end he had to rescue (after intense persuasion from Pippin) Minas Tirith from another evil which had set inside to corrupt the heart of the City.

It is interesting to note that, by Gandalf confronting the WK & telling him to go back, he was actually giving the WK a choice to return to Good, which the WK rejected utterly due to it being subdued to the Evil will of Sauron & thus its demise followed quickly thereafter. The same could be said for the Balrog also, when it confronted Gandalf.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is interesting to note that, by Gandalf confronting the WK & telling him to go back, he was actually giving the WK a choice to return to Good, which the WK rejected utterly due to it being subdued to the Evil will of Sauron & thus its demise followed quickly thereafter. The same could be said for the Balrog also, when it confronted Gandalf.

I think you're overcomplicating that. I think it was, in basic terms, like:

"Get the **** out!"
"Bring it on, *****!"

Pretty simple.

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I think you're overcomplicating that. I think it was, in basic terms, like:

"Get the **** out!"
"Bring it on, *****!"

Pretty simple.

I am actually basing my ideas from the excellent Spark Notes study guide for The Lord of the Rings (written by ex-Harvard University students who have a real passion for the subject). Although we are discussing the movies on this thread, I very much recommend that people buy this study guide, as it really does add another dimension to one's thinking - 232 pages all for just £2.99.

Gandalf, being a symbol for Good, really did give the 2 big villains of the LOTR (save Sauron) a choice to turn away from Evil. That, I guess is what he was sent to middle-earth for.

[The 1,000 Reader]

In the end, there was no clear advantage to any side, none backed down or quivered in their boots, and they were both pulled away from the fight before it could start. In the end, it's best to look at it like a battle of equals. Enough said.