Saruman for or against Sauron?

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

We may just have to disagree on that, as that is an interpretation of the text. I believe my interpretation is more in line with what Tolkien wrote elsewhere and Tolkien’s writings are the standard I go by.



Ahhh, yes…let’s talk about what Sauron “knows” about the Ring…



…evidently not much. If he didn’t know that he would have been utterly destroyed by the destruction of the Ring, I don’t think we can place ultimate reliance upon his supposed knowledge of who could or could not use the Ring to challenge him.

One thing Sauron probably did know - the Ring could be used to overthrow & replace him as Darklord of Mordor by another mighty power. Otherwise what was the point in going after Gondor in such a hurried fashion if the Ring could not be used against him? He bent is power towards Gondor for great fear that the Ring would be sent there to be wielded as a weapon against him.

If Sauron did know that the Ring could not be used against him, surely he would have bent all his guile to the hunting of the Ring, even after the initial attempt by the Nine Black Riders had failed? He would have already known that Mordor forces were far too strong for Gondor & Rohan, & could afford to use his armies to lure the Ring to him again, surely his uttermost desire above all others. The only other way that things could be explained is if Sauron didn't know whether his Ring could be used against him, but judging by his choices & actions it seems as though he thought it likely that he could be defeated if it were used against him.

Infact, Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond & even Sauron generally believed the Ring could be used to overthrow the Dark Lord. Although we cannot be absolutely certain of this, one would have to agree that it would be likely that Sauron could be overthrown by another power with the Ring. Aside from this being Sauron's great fear, none of the above characters speak of there being a chance that by wielding the Ring they would likely as not be fooled by the lure of the Ring's power to such an extent that they would just end up succumbing to Sauron in one way or other. The fear amongst these characters was that ''another Sauron'' would form, rather than the Ring wielder entering the service of the Darklord after being corrupted by the Ring.

[Boromir88]

…evidently not much. If he didn’t know that he would have been utterly destroyed by the destruction of the Ring, I don’t think we can place ultimate reliance upon his supposed knowledge of who could or could not use the Ring to challenge him.

I think Mansun brings up some good points...

In Tolkien's letter to Milton Waldman, he makes clear that the Ring could be used against Sauron:

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished.' Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.

And it's obvious he feared this, instead of somebody being sent to Mordor to destroy the Ring:

This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effor (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.

I do agree that there is a difference between 'mastering' the ring' and 'wielding' it. To master the Ring, would be to break the allegiance and tie between Sauron and the Ring. It would break the 'rapport' and Sauron would most of his power and be diminished to a spirit incapable of reforming again. Then Lalwende brings up a good point also, can one truly master the Ring? Because even if you get rid of Sauron for good, Sauron's work will continue, as the person who mastered the Ring will in time become another Dark Lord. So, the Ring can be mastered in the sense that Sauron is no longer the ring's 'Master' but the Ring has a new 'master' a new person (say Gandalf for instance) will be the new 'Lord of the Rings.' But it can't be mastered in the sense that nothing good can come from it. The Ring will be the 'master' in the end.

To wield the Ring, would be to just carry it and use it against Sauron. I think wielding goes more along the lines of using the Ring and gathering a large army to go and overthrow Sauron. This is what it appears Sauron feared the most, especially with Aragorn being Isildur's heir. He feared that Aragorn had the Ring and was coming with an army to overthrow him. This is also what Boromir and Sam had envisioned, 'armies would flock to their banner's' and especially Boromir it would give him the power to 'Command.' Sauron was defeated when he had the Ring, so I don't see why he couldn't be defeated without it, in the hands of someone else. But, to 'wield' the Ring wouldn't be the same as 'mastering' the Ring. I don't think 'wielding' the Ring would be breaking that bond between the Ring and Sauron. You are just using it as a weapon against him, not in fact mastering it's powers. So, to use the Ring against Sauron in this manner, Sauron would be able to return, as the Ring's powers would still exist and be tied to Sauron.

[Kuruharan]

Infact, Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond & even Sauron generally believed the Ring could be used to overthrow the Dark Lord. Although we cannot be absolutely certain of this, one would have to agree that it would be likely that Sauron could be overthrown by another power with the Ring. Aside from this being Sauron's great fear, none of the above characters speak of there being a chance that by wielding the Ring they would likely as not be fooled by the lure of the Ring's power to such an extent that they would just end up succumbing to Sauron in one way or other. The fear amongst these characters was that ''another Sauron'' would form, rather than the Ring wielder entering the service of the Darklord after being corrupted by the Ring.

All of this is still just talking about what characters "knew."
And the Ring was certainly eager to betray everybody else, why couldn't it betray one of them?

If Sauron did know that the Ring could not be used against him, surely he would have bent all his guile to the hunting of the Ring, even after the initial attempt by the Nine Black Riders had failed? He would have already known that Mordor forces were far too strong for Gondor & Rohan, & could afford to use his armies to lure the Ring to him again, surely his uttermost desire above all others.

Isn't that what he did, in a way?

The only other way that things could be explained is if Sauron didn't know whether his Ring could be used against him, but judging by his choices & actions it seems as though he thought it likely that he could be defeated if it were used against him.

I'm afraid you're not making a whole lot of sense here. At first you say that if Sauron thought the Ring was no threat to him then he would have spent more time hunting it but then you say he would have tried to use his armies to get the Ring back. Considering that he thought Gandalf or Aragorn had the Ring (which is a bizarre thing for him to think because if he thought they were going to try and master it, you'd think he'd believe he'd have sensed their efforts to do so) didn't he sort of use his armies to try and get the Ring back? Which is it you are arguing for?

It would break the 'rapport' and Sauron would most of his power and be diminished to a spirit incapable of reforming again. Then Lalwende brings up a good point also, can one truly master the Ring? Because even if you get rid of Sauron for good, Sauron's work will continue, as the person who mastered the Ring will in time become another Dark Lord.

A) It seems to me that you would have to master the Ring in order to defeat Sauron by this method. If you don’t the Ring will betray you to Sauron because the Ring would not have forgotten who it really belonged to.

Also…

If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.

It seems that mastering the Ring is part and parcel of utterly breaking Sauron.

B) This is another reason why the Wise didn’t consider trying this to be a viable alternative.

I think wielding goes more along the lines of using the Ring and gathering a large army to go and overthrow Sauron.

I have to admit that I’ve never particularly understood how the Ring was especially helpful in this regard. It can’t create soldiers out of thin air and how does it entice people to follow someone else to their death they know little about and have no history of loyalty toward.

I don't see why he couldn't be defeated without it, in the hands of someone else.

-and-

Sauron would be able to return, as the Ring's powers would still exist and be tied to Sauron.

Theoretically (ignoring the military incapacity of the West for this line of thought, even though I think this is a big part of the reason why the Ring had to be mastered in order for Sauon to be defeated in this way) it might be possible to militarily defeat Sauron. However, I agree that Sauron would not be broken and that he would come back. And I’m not sure the Ring would be exactly helpful in this enterprise. I think it would be apt for betrayal.

[Boromir88]

I have to admit that I’ve never particularly understood how the Ring was especially helpful in this regard. It can’t create soldiers out of thin air and how does it entice people to follow someone else to their death they know little about and have no history of loyalty toward.

It could very well just be the deceit of the Ring. Some had accepted the Ring's deceit (Galadriel and Sam) and rejected the desires of 'glory' and 'army flocking,' where others (Boromir) fell to it.

Going back to the famous Letter 246:

In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, I 381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council. Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.~Letter 246

The 'Great' knew what the Ring was about, and knew their thoughts of overthrowing Sauron militarily wasn't the right strategy. So, they rejected this plan, and Galadriel passes her 'test.' Same goes for Sam:

In that hour of trial it was the love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him.~Tower of Cirith Ungol

The Ring filled Sam with thoughts of being 'Samwise the Brave' leading armies to overthrow Sauron, and after he could make the Gorgoroth into some grand and beautiful garden. But, Sam knew very well that the Ring was out to betray him, and even if it wasn't, he didn't want what the Ring had to offer him anyway...what he had was good enough:

The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command.~ibid

Boromir, it's just a little different:

'What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not Aragorn do? Or if he refuses, why not Boromir? The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner.~The Breaking of the Fellowship

Eventhough if he knows what was said at the Council of Elrond, that doesn't mean he accepts what was said:

'Were you not at the Council?' answered Frodo. 'Because we cannot use it, and what is done with it turns to evil.'
Boromir got up and walked about impatiently. 'So you go one,' he cried. 'Gandalf, Elrond - all these folk have taught you to say so. For themselves they may be right. These elves and half-elves and wizards, they would come to grief perhaps. Yet often I doubt if they are wise and not merely timid.'~ibid

I think at least during this age where the numbers of the West were greatly diminished compared to prior ages, then a military overthrow of Sauron was impossible, even with the Ring. And this was something that was debated thoroughly throught the Last Debate, and prior. They had not had the military might to challenge Sauron, the Ring had to be destroyed. Or Sauron had to be killed, as he came out in the Last Alliance, and openly challenges Elendil and Gil-galad. But, I doubt Sauron's going to be leaving Barad-dur anytime soon:

Denethor laughed bitterly. 'Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won.'~The Siege of Gondor

I do find it interesting though that Tolkien explores another way of Sauron's ultimate defeat:

'But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).'~Letter 200

So, just kill Sauron enough times, and he would not have the 'will' that it took to reform again...as each rebuilding takes up part of the 'will.' But, again, the only victory at this time during the War of the Ring would come if the Ring was destroyed.

So, long story short, I'm agreeing that the West had lacked the military prowess to overthrow Sauron (even if Aragorn had the ring). So, any sort of vision of rallying these grand armies was just the deceit of the Ring. And Sauron wasn't going to come out of Barad-dur anytime soon, so I doubt he was going to be slain as he was in the Last Alliance.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

All of this is still just talking about what characters "knew."
And the Ring was certainly eager to betray everybody else, why couldn't it betray one of them?



Isn't that what he did, in a way?



I'm afraid you're not making a whole lot of sense here. At first you say that if Sauron thought the Ring was no threat to him then he would have spent more time hunting it but then you say he would have tried to use his armies to get the Ring back. Considering that he thought Gandalf or Aragorn had the Ring (which is a bizarre thing for him to think because if he thought they were going to try and master it, you'd think he'd believe he'd have sensed their efforts to do so) didn't he sort of use his armies to try and get the Ring back? Which is it you are arguing for?



A) It seems to me that you would have to master the Ring in order to defeat Sauron by this method. If you don’t the Ring will betray you to Sauron because the Ring would not have forgotten who it really belonged to.

Also…



It seems that mastering the Ring is part and parcel of utterly breaking Sauron.

B) This is another reason why the Wise didn’t consider trying this to be a viable alternative.



I have to admit that I’ve never particularly understood how the Ring was especially helpful in this regard. It can’t create soldiers out of thin air and how does it entice people to follow someone else to their death they know little about and have no history of loyalty toward.



Theoretically (ignoring the military incapacity of the West for this line of thought, even though I think this is a big part of the reason why the Ring had to be mastered in order for Sauon to be defeated in this way) it might be possible to militarily defeat Sauron. However, I agree that Sauron would not be broken and that he would come back. And I’m not sure the Ring would be exactly helpful in this enterprise. I think it would be apt for betrayal.

Gandalf, as the White Rider said that Sauron should have used all his guile to the hunting of the Ring instead of throwing his power at Gondor. So, clearly there is a better strategy to hunt for the Ring than just sending plundering orcs to Gondor. Sauron could have sent some of his best men to scout & spy out the lands, whilst the Nazgul could ride openly again to scour the lands. In this situation, it would have been very difficult to get the Ring to, say Gondor, in time. Sauron could, & perhaps should have used his armies in a smarter way.

[Kuruharan]

Gandalf, as the White Rider said that Sauron should have used all his guile to the hunting of the Ring instead of throwing his power at Gondor.

Okay, gotcha.

I wonder if Gandalf was using what he (that is Gandalf) knew about what was happening. He knew that they were sending the Ring to destruction. However, Sauron didn’t know this and really didn’t know what they were doing. So certainly it would have been better for Sauron to spend all his time searching for the Ring because that was where the threat was coming from, but Sauron didn’t know that (which was a good thing).