Temptation of Boromir

[Alchisiel]

Good points Boromir88, I had not thought about Boromir wanting to, oh how would say, defend his homeland? But I tend to disagree with you concerning Gollum, as I believe he was not evil when the ring appeared but did become so upon killing Deagol. It is said that Smeagol's people were like to hobbits so he couldn't have been evil from the start. Hobbits are not evil, they have good hearts. Maybe it's in how he used it once he possessed it then? As I remember he used it to spy on people to find out secrets and what not. True?

[Boromir88]

But I tend to disagree with you concerning Gollum, as I believe he was not evil when the ring appeared but did become so upon killing Deagol.

I wouldn't call Gollum (as Smeagol) evil. Gollum nearly repented, because of his love for Frodo, and he remembered his life as Smeagol. As I believe is said somewhere he still had a 'small corner' of his mind that wasn't under the Ring's influence...and that 'corner' was Smeagol. He was able to remember his name before he got the Ring, and it was this 'corner' of his mind that remained uncorrupted by the Ring. He nearly repented, but it was Sam's lack of Pity for him at the time that made redemption impossible for Gollum.

Gollum was still able to remember his former name...Smeagol. Which I think is of importance...if we look at those completely under the dominion of Sauron (The Nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron), they don't remember their names, or are given none, they virtually have no identity as they are completely under Sauron's control. Where Gollum still remembered his life as Smeagol, and had this 'small corner.'

Saying all that, I agree that Smeagol was not 'evil,' and I see how you believed I thought that. I don't think Smeagol was evil, but as we all do, we all have the capability of doing evil, even if we aren't. I wouldn't call Boromir 'evil,' but his mindset is what makes him fall to the Ring...I think it's the same thing for Gollum.

Gollum believed he deserved the Ring because it was his 'birthday' and the Ring would be his 'birthday gift,' so he already was searching for an excuse to lay claim to the Ring as his. I don't think this makes him evil, but it's what causes him to commit and evil act, and murder for the Ring...his belief that the Ring is his gift, for his birthday.

I think it's similar to Isildur's claim...

'This I will have as weregild for my father, and my brother'~The Council of Elrond

Isildur set a perfectly legal and right claim of 'weregild' on the Ring. Weregild was a way of stopping feuds to arise between families. If someone injured or killed your property, a family member...etc, the guilty party would repay them in 'weregild' to settle any disputes. So, killing a slave for example, wouldn't really get much payment for. But, someone killing your father (who happens to be the King) and your brother, the weregild would be extremely costly, and Isildur takes Sauron's most valuable possession.

So, Isildur, lays a perfectly legal claim of 'weregild' to take the Ring as payment for the death of his father and brother...however I think we can question his true purpose (meaning morally). Isildur claiming weregild is just his attempt to convince himself that he has the only claim to the Ring. Just like how Gollum justified his claim on the Ring as it was 'his birthday present.' With Isildur it was 'weregild' in payment for the death of his father and brother.

Again, I don't think this means Isildur and Gollum were 'evil.' But, they both laid a justification as to why they deserve the Ring, and it is this action which made them susceptible to the Ring.

[Raynor]

Again, I don't think this means Isildur and Gollum were 'evil.'

Debatable; Tolkien made some interesting refferences to Gollum in letter #181; though he did agree that the ring was too powerful for him to withstand, he also notes that he was already corrupted; he "appears 'damnable'", he has a "mean soul" and is described as a "mean son of a thief" [sic].

Was Isildur's claim right? I don't think so, by any standard. He wasn't the only one to lose a dear person; if anything, the Ring was a "weregild" for all those who somehow lost someone to Sauron - if anything, the Ring is more of an elven matter than a Mannish one. And on the moral plane, his claim is highly questionable, since it perpetuated Sauron's power.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Again, I don't think this means Isildur and Gollum were 'evil.'

I disagree. Hobbits can be evil, as in the Chief and Ted Sandyman; the latter so evil that he didn't even wash up! Smeagol, seeing Deagol's Ring, didn't just decide then and there to commit murder. That seed was already planted in Smeagol, and he was either tending towards evil from a young age and/or was a spoiled brat. The reason that I think this is that other hobbits see the Ring in another hobbit's possession yet don't suddenly become hobbicidal.

Like others who turned to the dark side; there's always the call, but one must actively choose to listen (Sauron, Saruman, Grima, Ted, etc).

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Gollum: Even before reading "Letters", from LOTR itself, it
seems clear from Gandalf's account to Frodo in Bagend that
Smeagol's early life and character predisposed him towards
evil, as did his almost instantaneous murder of Deagol
(as compared to Boromir's slow corruption of character---and
interesting repentence as soon as Frodo fled).

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Gollum: Even before reading "Letters", from LOTR itself, it
seems clear from Gandalf's account to Frodo in Bagend that
Smeagol's early life and character predisposed him towards
evil, as did his almost instantaneous murder of Deagol
(as compared to Boromir's slow corruption of character---and
interesting repentence as soon as Frodo fled).

Indeed...Boromir was a good man, and the Ring fed off of his good intentions. Which is why instantly after Frodo leaves and Boromir's temptation passes, he weeps. You also have to keep in mind that Boromir was the Captain of the White Tower. He was the Steward's son. Imagine the excess glory (I say excess because Boromir was already accounted as Gondor's greatest warrior at the time) that awaited him coming home after defeating the Dark Lord with his own weapon? The Ring played on him for such glories. Gollum is a completely different story...

Ok, you can all keep debating about Gollum, I just wanted to get something in about Boromir

[Alchisiel]

So this leads me to another question, why didn't the ring try to tempt Aragorn? He wanted to go with Boromir to help deliver Minas Tirith from Sauron so why not tempt him? Is it because he is Isildur's heir, and had a "right" to the ring or is it because he is of noble blood, or what?

I would like to say this of Boromir, I never have thought of him as evil or weak. I see him as a man with a great love for his people and homeland, who wanted to help his people so desperately that the ring used it against him.

[Raynor]

Is it because he is Isildur's heir, and had a "right" to the ring or is it because he is of noble blood, or what?

I think it is his moral nobility that protected him; the ring has only one master, as noted by Gandalf

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond, FotR

We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil.

and Tolkien himself

Originally Posted by Letter #246

Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Alchisiel

So this leads me to another question, why didn't the ring try to tempt Aragorn? He wanted to go with Boromir to help deliver Minas Tirith from Sauron so why not tempt him? Is it because he is Isildur's heir, and had a "right" to the ring or is it because he is of noble blood, or what?

I would think that it might be because Aragorn knew the history of the Ring too well; he knew what would happen if he'd left himself to be tempted. Also, Aragorn's love for Gandalf and Elrond might have been a reason. Besides, I think his heart was different from Boromir's. (Can't explain how.)