Heroes: LOTR vs Rocky Balboa - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Celuien · 08-31-2006, 05:40 PM

Rocky is a hero. After all, there's a statue of him. And half the city was very recently shut down for filming the latest installment to his life story.

But in all seriousness, Rocky is a different type of hero from Frodo or Sam. Rocky is a wish-fulfillment symbol - the underdog who gets his shot and against all odds, gaining self-respect in the process. I think most people have dreamt about their big chance. Rocky is the one who is given that chance. That idea has a powerful allure for 'escapist' movie audiences who have the chance to vicariously live out their fantasies through Rocky.

The heroes of the LoTR are in an entirely different category. Fighting for the greater good, as Selmo puts it, and at great personal cost. Obviously the more noble effort, but maybe not quite as mass appealing as the fantasy of going from rags to riches or from obscurity to fame as Rocky did. Given the choice, how would we choose to act? I would hope I would be Frodo, but if the question were to move from the theoretical and abstract safety of an Internet discussion forum to a concrete decision, I honestly don't know with certainty.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 08-31-2006, 05:57 PM

I have never seen a Rocky movie to the end, so I could not say wether he is a hero or not.

I normaly define a hero from the old mythology/legend standarts. A hero is a person who is endowed with great courage and strength and celebrated for his bold exploits. (yes I borrowed the wording) For me I think Hector is the greatest Hero ever. . .

Although being a Hero is often connected with fighting and such, I don't necesarily think it has to be so. . . In my view you can "run away" from military service and still be a hero no problem.

09-01-2006, 04:06 AM

From the list of heroes, I'd rather be Rocky Balboa personally. Though I can see a lot of comparisons between him & Aragorn - the biggest one being that they both fought for what they believed in with heart.

Aragorn could have easily stayed at Rivendell & lived a peaceful life without long journeys into great peril & back, but his heart was to take on the evil in Mordor to undo the wrongs in the world & avenge the deaths of his kinsmen. I do see this also in Rocky IV when Balboa decides to give up his title & go into the unknown in Russia to fight a deadly enemy (albeit on a much smaller scale to that of the threat from Mordor!) to avenge the death of his friend.

They both did what they had to do, for the right reasons, & with heart.

**The Saucepan Man** · 09-01-2006, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celuien

But in all seriousness, Rocky is a different type of hero from Frodo or Sam. Rocky is a wish-fulfillment symbol - the underdog who gets his shot and against all odds, gaining self-respect in the process.

But isn't the ennoblement of the humble (in the form of the Hobbits) one of Tolkien's major themes? The substance might be different (in that they are "fighting" for different things) but there is similarity in the process, is there not?

Bêthberry · 09-01-2006, 07:28 AM

Well, I had thought the genres at least were different. Rocky the First was realism, not fantasy, grounded in specific, particular, exact details like the historical city of Philadelphia and those famous steps at the art gallery. (Celuien, I wouldn't call that figure a statue. I'd agree it is a prop, and a form of Stallone's self-promotion.

) At least, it operated in the realm of realism which most American movies imply. Except for Alien, those top movie heroes operate in the literary genre of realism. (Interestingly, more of the villains come from non-realism--The Wizard of Oz, The Exorcist, Snow White.)

LotR is fairie, is fantasy, is it not? It has its eucatastrophe. I don't think Rocky does because the outcome (at least as I can remember the first movie) was ever seriously in doubt, just made tense and dramatic.

Does this difference of genre change our concept of hero?

Celuien · 09-01-2006, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Celuien, I wouldn't call that figure a statue. I'd agree it is a prop, and a form of Stallone's self-promotion.

Agreed, and if they ever move it to the Art Museum, I'll be very unhappy. That thing is an ugly prop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPM

But isn't the ennoblement of the humble (in the form of the Hobbits) one of Tolkien's major themes? The substance might be different (in that they are "fighting" for different things) but there is similarity in the process, is there not?

Yes...but I would suggest that the main focus in the movie was not the process of ennoblement as much as the fulfillment of the characters' external goals. For Rocky, getting to the big fight (though I haven't seen the movie for a while, so I may need a refresher). For the LotR, destroying the ring. I'm not sure that the majority of movie audiences were focusing on character growth as the reason for making the characters heroes. And, honestly, I'm not sure of how well character growth was portrayed in the movies, other than in Boromir.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Does this difference of genre change our concept of hero?

Maybe. Rocky is more accessible in that there's a chance, however slim, that someone who admires Rocky will have a similar type of chance. In fantasy, that's not a possibility.

Lalaith · 09-03-2006, 09:49 AM

Why, by all that is heroic, is Atticus Finch not on that list? (A far more Tolkienish figure, at any rate...)

Oh, and I am with Lalwende on this. Why are all the heroes men and all the villains female?

08-31-2006, 05:40 PM	#1
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	Rocky is a hero. After all, there's a statue of him. And half the city was very recently shut down for filming the latest installment to his life story. But in all seriousness, Rocky is a different type of hero from Frodo or Sam. Rocky is a wish-fulfillment symbol - the underdog who gets his shot and against all odds, gaining self-respect in the process. I think most people have dreamt about their big chance. Rocky is the one who is given that chance. That idea has a powerful allure for 'escapist' movie audiences who have the chance to vicariously live out their fantasies through Rocky. The heroes of the LoTR are in an entirely different category. Fighting for the greater good, as Selmo puts it, and at great personal cost. Obviously the more noble effort, but maybe not quite as mass appealing as the fantasy of going from rags to riches or from obscurity to fame as Rocky did. Given the choice, how would we choose to act? I would hope I would be Frodo, but if the question were to move from the theoretical and abstract safety of an Internet discussion forum to a concrete decision, I honestly don't know with certainty. __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. Last edited by Celuien; 08-31-2006 at 07:22 PM. Reason: fixing broken URL

09-01-2006, 04:06 AM	#3
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	From the list of heroes, I'd rather be Rocky Balboa personally. Though I can see a lot of comparisons between him & Aragorn - the biggest one being that they both fought for what they believed in with heart. Aragorn could have easily stayed at Rivendell & lived a peaceful life without long journeys into great peril & back, but his heart was to take on the evil in Mordor to undo the wrongs in the world & avenge the deaths of his kinsmen. I do see this also in Rocky IV when Balboa decides to give up his title & go into the unknown in Russia to fight a deadly enemy (albeit on a much smaller scale to that of the threat from Mordor!) to avenge the death of his friend. They both did what they had to do, for the right reasons, & with heart. Last edited by Mansun; 09-01-2006 at 04:16 AM.

09-01-2006, 07:28 AM	#5
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Well, I had thought the genres at least were different. Rocky the First was realism, not fantasy, grounded in specific, particular, exact details like the historical city of Philadelphia and those famous steps at the art gallery. (Celuien, I wouldn't call that figure a statue. I'd agree it is a prop, and a form of Stallone's self-promotion. ) At least, it operated in the realm of realism which most American movies imply. Except for Alien, those top movie heroes operate in the literary genre of realism. (Interestingly, more of the villains come from non-realism--The Wizard of Oz, The Exorcist, Snow White.) LotR is fairie, is fantasy, is it not? It has its eucatastrophe. I don't think Rocky does because the outcome (at least as I can remember the first movie) was ever seriously in doubt, just made tense and dramatic. Does this difference of genre change our concept of hero? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

09-03-2006, 09:49 AM	#7
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Why, by all that is heroic, is Atticus Finch not on that list? (A far more Tolkienish figure, at any rate...) Oh, and I am with Lalwende on this. Why are all the heroes men and all the villains female? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling