Why did the Nazgul not succeed in Bree and on Weathertop? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nogrod · 09-05-2006, 02:31 PM

I must admit to have wondered the same thing Menelvagor does here. Or at least the Weathertop-incident.

One could say that they just didn't find Frodo and the Ring in Bree. Plausible, perhaps. Although one is left with the question, why didn't they search more as they clearly terrorised everyone around and had the upper hand?

The Bruinen ford could be explained too, I think. Confusion, fastly changing situations and the spirit of the elven horse + the magic of the Rivendell etc.

But the Weathertop? Some halflings and one hero with torches against the Black Riders, against the Nazgûl? (Okay, it's laughable beyond even disbelief in the PJ adaptation!) Just compare their might and effect on the goodies later in the story! To my eyes they gain a lot of power between FotR and RotK. On Weathertop they drew back from a torch-wielding hobbit, in Minas Tirith the "newly-born" and mightily strengthened Gandalf has trouble dealing with them... Is this logical? I doubt that.

I think Raynor's and A Brandybuck's learned comments are worth noting, but still. On Weathertop they had their chance and chose to ran away. I'm a bit baffled about that, still am.

Bêthberry · 09-05-2006, 04:33 PM

I think the Nazgul failed for the same reason that the Eagles didn't fly the ring to Mount Doom.

We wouldn't have had as good a story then.

Seriously, I think readers (and the Fellowship?) need a taste of the power they face and the terror they will meet as a way of helping build suspense. We don't really know or understand what this terrible power is until as readers we 'experience' the Nazgul.*

*keeping in mind that Tolkien's version of Fairie is not as dark as some of the original fairy stories, tales and legends.

The 1,000 Reader · 09-05-2006, 04:46 PM

Forget all of the much later on dismay and such. The answer is not hard to see and rather simple:

If the Nazgul succeeded at likely points, the story wouldn't be that long and nowhere near as epic. All in all, whether you view it as Eru's will or Tolkien's power, it was done solely for the plot.

(Hey, at least the nazgul weren't put into as bad shoes as the humans in Halo.)

**The Saucepan Man** · 09-05-2006, 04:53 PM

Great material there from Raynor and the young Brandybuck. You learn something new every day ...

As for Weathertop, the Nazgul did at least partially succeed. The Witch-King stuck Frodo with a Morgul blade. He knew what the effects of that would be. At best (from the W-K's perspective), Frodo would succumb and become a Wraith himself. With no power to resist, he would don the Ring, slip away from his companions and easily be found by the Riders. At worst, it would slow down the companions' journey to Rivendell, possibly allowing the Riders to attack at full strength at a moment of their choosing.

Add to that the material provided by Raynor and A-Brandybuck, and it probably seemed to the Witch-King at that point that discretion was the best part of valour.

Of course, he didn't account for the fact that Glorfindel (and other Elves of Rivendell) were abroad - a foolish oversight, perhaps, but not one lacking in credibility. He underestimated the strength of Frodo's spirit - but how could have understood this? And he overlooked the healing skills of Aragorn (and the presence of athelas in the region) - something he should perhaps have had some conception of, but again not an oversight lacking in credibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

To my eyes they gain a lot of power between FotR and RotK. On Weathertop they drew back from a torch-wielding hobbit, in Minas Tirith the "newly-born" and mightily strengthened Gandalf has trouble dealing with them... Is this logical? I doubt that.

Tolkien states in one of his Letters that the Sauron imbued the Witch-King with added demonic force before the march on Gondor. So the Witch-King, at least, did gain power between FotR and RotK.

Rumil · 09-05-2006, 05:18 PM

I've also had the impression that the Nazgul became more powerful the closer they came to Sauron in Mordor. During the passage of the Dead Marshes Sam and Frodo were more terrified by the cries of the Nazgul than they had been in the Shire.

I wonder if this could be explained by the intervening rivers. Tolkien stated the the Nazgul were reluctant to cross running water, which seems peculiar, but similar stories are told of witches and sorcerors in folklore. It has been proposed that the runnning water interfered with their perception in some way (sort of messing with their vibes!), perhaps making them less sure and resolute in their actions than they would have been on 'home turf'.

09-05-2006, 02:31 PM	#1
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	I must admit to have wondered the same thing Menelvagor does here. Or at least the Weathertop-incident. One could say that they just didn't find Frodo and the Ring in Bree. Plausible, perhaps. Although one is left with the question, why didn't they search more as they clearly terrorised everyone around and had the upper hand? The Bruinen ford could be explained too, I think. Confusion, fastly changing situations and the spirit of the elven horse + the magic of the Rivendell etc. But the Weathertop? Some halflings and one hero with torches against the Black Riders, against the Nazgûl? (Okay, it's laughable beyond even disbelief in the PJ adaptation!) Just compare their might and effect on the goodies later in the story! To my eyes they gain a lot of power between FotR and RotK. On Weathertop they drew back from a torch-wielding hobbit, in Minas Tirith the "newly-born" and mightily strengthened Gandalf has trouble dealing with them... Is this logical? I doubt that. I think Raynor's and A Brandybuck's learned comments are worth noting, but still. On Weathertop they had their chance and chose to ran away. I'm a bit baffled about that, still am. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

09-05-2006, 04:33 PM	#2
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	I think the Nazgul failed for the same reason that the Eagles didn't fly the ring to Mount Doom. We wouldn't have had as good a story then. Seriously, I think readers (and the Fellowship?) need a taste of the power they face and the terror they will meet as a way of helping build suspense. We don't really know or understand what this terrible power is until as readers we 'experience' the Nazgul.* keeping in mind that Tolkien's version of Fairie is not as dark as some of the original fairy stories, tales and legends. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.*

09-05-2006, 04:46 PM	#3
The 1,000 Reader Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps. Posts: 527	Forget all of the much later on dismay and such. The answer is not hard to see and rather simple: If the Nazgul succeeded at likely points, the story wouldn't be that long and nowhere near as epic. All in all, whether you view it as Eru's will or Tolkien's power, it was done solely for the plot. (Hey, at least the nazgul weren't put into as bad shoes as the humans in Halo.) __________________ "And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains

09-05-2006, 05:18 PM	#5
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	I've also had the impression that the Nazgul became more powerful the closer they came to Sauron in Mordor. During the passage of the Dead Marshes Sam and Frodo were more terrified by the cries of the Nazgul than they had been in the Shire. I wonder if this could be explained by the intervening rivers. Tolkien stated the the Nazgul were reluctant to cross running water, which seems peculiar, but similar stories are told of witches and sorcerors in folklore. It has been proposed that the runnning water interfered with their perception in some way (sort of messing with their vibes!), perhaps making them less sure and resolute in their actions than they would have been on 'home turf'. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion