Lord of the Rings labelled racist

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

My own feeling is they have decided it is racist & there is not a thing any of us can do to convince them they are wrong.

You may be right. But just because a cause looks hopeless, it does not follow that one should not seek to uphold it. Where would Middle-earth have been with an approach like that?

Although, in fact, my own initial consideration of this issue (in the thread I linked to above) was directed at calming the slight qualms that I had, having not at that stage read the book for many a year and having little knowledge of Tolkien the man, that there might be racist undertones. Suffice it to say that they were calmed.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

You may be right. But just because a cause looks hopeless, it does not follow that one should not seek to uphold it. Where would Middle-earth have been with an approach like that?

Although, in fact, my own initial consideration of this issue (in the thread I linked to above) was directed at calming the slight qualms that I had, having not at that stage read the book for many a year and having little knowledge of Tolkien the man, that there might be racist undertones. Suffice it to say that they were calmed.

I don't think most readers of the book would even think about it being racist - until some critic points it out, & most of them would instantly dismiss the idea as silly. The ones who propagate the idea won't be convinced otherwise, however convincing your arguments, because they want it to be true that the work is racist. They repeat their position, we repeat ours, & most people, for whom (hope everyone is seated for this...) Tolkien's work is an irrelevance couldn't care less one way or the other.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

You may be right. But just because a cause looks hopeless, it does not follow that one should not seek to uphold it. Where would Middle-earth have been with an approach like that?

Thinking about this need to 'defend' LotR, I do think you are right, even though it might make little difference to those who have their minds made up already. Why did I think this? I was thinking back to University when there was a tendency in classes to actively seek out racist overtones (or rather, undertones) in texts. Ridiculous questions would be posed such as why there were no black people in Thomas Hardy's novels, or why he didn't deal with race issues. Merely pointing out that black people weren't exactly common in rural 'Wessex' would cut no ice. And I think that some critics (and potential readers) will come at it from that angle, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by SpM

Well, I would say that depends upon how you react to it personally. The closest that we can get to an objective assessment in this regard is by considering the extent to which people react positivley or negatively to a particular interpretation. On that basis, I would say that the interpretation of LotR as a racist work is "incorrect" - certainly as far as I am concerned, but also, I would venture to suggest, for the majority of readers.

Interesting. Well, fortunately most of us are not racist so in that kind of reader interpretation we are OK with the 'majority' view. However other kinds of reading may be more forceful - not necessarily due to numbers or a majority view, but to cultural and political pressures (and pressure groups' influence on culture) in contemporary societies.

[Nogrod]

Sorry, ignore this if it's said a thousand times already.

But it surely looks weird to me if someone, who recounts and remodels the stories of her/his tradition (lending bits and pieces from other cultures, in a wide sense of the term 'culture') and forges them to an epic, is called racist if s/he just happens to be primarly interested on her/his own cultural roots and blends the common prejudices og her/his era into the epic... With that account both Socrates and Jesus, and Kung-fu-Tse (Confucius?) and Lao-Tse were racists too. Basically that would mean that all the authors of great stories or philosophies of any era or place, not counting post-modern intellectuals, are racists...

And even here we have a case for doubt: what is the thing anyone who in the "advanced society" of ours pointing the racism of others has ignored? We all ignore something in a way or another, if nothing else, our own premises which we can't neither show or argue for for any greater length, not to speak of proving them to those who don't share them already! Being aware that one's premises are a choice (or culturally given) surely is good understanding, but still just the awareness of that doesn't clear anyone to be the "his (sic!) masters voice", even with good intentions.

It seems to be a question then also of a cultural situation and the zeitgeist, or ethike of things. If we look at earlier generations with the cultural standards of ours, we miss things on a grand scale?

The problem surely is, that if we wish to dissect those "culturally anchored" beliefs of the author's time out from a work to see the "eternal truth" in it, then on which timeless ideology do we base or ground that choice of ours?

[davem]

Of course, it must be remembered that there are racist/neo-Nazi groups out there who are happy to claim LotR as a 'racist' work, & would take offence at such a claim being challenged or mocked.

Some 'condemn' LotR as 'racist', some praise it as 'racist'. Of course, neither group is right (imo, of course).

We are, as is not unusual, on difficult ground. If it can be argued that while Tolkien did not write LotR as a Christian work, his Christianity came through in it, one could, I suppose, argue that he was 'unconsciously' racist due to the culture he grew up in being 'institutionally racist', & while he didn't write a 'consciously' racist work there is an underlying 'racist' subtext. This is the problem we face when we start arguing for this or that 'subtext' to the work. People rarely approach such a 'search' objectively. They usually have an agenda, something to prove, & will use all kinds of convoluted arguments to get you to where they wish you to end up.

The writer of the article that started all this wanted to convince people that LotR is a racist work, & attempted to steer them in that way. Others in various books & articles have attempted to convince their readers its a 'Christian' book, or a humanist book, or an environmentalist book. Lots of individuals & groups want to claim the work for themselves or foist it on others or reject it altogether.

Quick addendum.

I suppose that what I'm saying is that just as for some readers the presence of themes such as mercy, pity, self sacrifice, One God are enough to make LotR a 'Christian' work while others demand the presence of more specific Christian themes & symbols, so the presence of 'Black' Riders, dark or sallow skinned enemies, predominantly white skinned heroes, is enough to make it a 'racist' work.

Because of this it is not simply a matter of convincing a critic that the work is not 'racist' - it would actually require us to change their whole conception of what racism is & the form it takes in literature - which would probably also require us to change their political stance, & possibly their entire worldview.

[Saurreg]

I am amazed that this thread is still going on. Can't recall whether I posted in here before...

Anyway I am Chinese and am proud of my heritage. And yes, my skin is dark (from my father's side, the men of the house of Ong have dark skin )

So do I look upon LoTR as a work of racism or the work of a racist? Neither. Infact it is one of my favourate books which incidentally is one reason I still linger around these boards. But neither do I feel the need to jump into the defence of the work or the author like many of you here, not just because I have no idea what was going through his mind then and whether there was "regression of subconscious racism" (good phrase!) but rather because I am just apathetic.

To me it is just a story book. Read it and enjoy it, if not read it and trash it. If that story was written with intention as racist propaganda such as "Be wary of foul, untrustworthy darkies and white skin supreme!" I tell you I must have been completely dense to missed it head, tail and all.

There are of course the ultra-mandarins who would say that my casualness is a byproduct of the English colonial second class citizen mentality. This dispite the fact that a) I have not called any caucasian "master" before, b) public education has etched in the prejudice that the Brits can't fight to save their lives, hence the disasterous occupation of Singapore by the Japanese and c) I have two white aussies working under me whom I bend and break so often depending on my mood (they call me the "devil" at Brani).

And I know I am not alone here and there are many other people worldwide who would share my point of view - the same kind of people that opponents of LoTR's "racism" love to equate and "speak out in defence of" with the dark-skinned people with red tongues (too much promegranate juice I reckon) and foul dispositions.

So my response to this thread; the accusations academics heaped upon Tolkien and the defences for the same man, is "So what?" The people who are being "racially" depicted are either ignorant of existance of this work or just don't care.

If Tolkien was still alive and I met him, I would have congratulated him on a good read and no, I won't buy him a pint because he already earned loyalties through the copy I bought. And if, just if I were to walk through some streets somewhere in this world and some kid pointed at me exclaiming "Haradim! Hardadim! Foul Easterling!" I'll be cool.

At least I have an elephant kid. A big one. Now what you got?

[Elu Ancalime]

Even though the first half of the 20th centrury was clearly racially divided in culture, it sounds like this Dr. Shapiro is capitalizing off something he/she sees as a threat to Western 21 century integrated culture.
It is intersting that the Dr said that Tolkien aliked the elves and the other Free Peoples to "Aryan" culture. Since much of Tolkien's work was coming together during the 1930's and 40's, I think that if Tolkien was truly an advocate of supremacy, he would have flown into Nuremburg and being Goebbles right hand man. Here is a quote from Tolkien when his german publishers asked him if he was of aryan descent:

"I must say that the enclosed letter from R?tten & Loening is a bit stiff. Do I suffer this impertinence because of the possession of a German name, or do their lunatic laws require a certificate of arisch origin from all persons of all countries? ... Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Best?tigung (although it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine." ? July 25, 1938 (The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #29 ?

and then

:"Thank you for your letter ... I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware noone of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people." (The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #30 ? Tolkien's unsent response to his German publishers; a more neutral version was ultimately sent)

________
Lebanese cooking

[Saurreg]

That's the problem with the world today. You have people "championing" the rights and interests of people they have no heartfelt interesting in representing at all or raising similar notions just for the sake of media attraction.

The best way is of course to ignore them. Even the act of debuking them adds to their influence and power as these folks capitalize on such sensations.

Tolkien referring to Germanic laws as absurd and rubbing it into Germans (why would they ask if he had Aryan blood??) by stating that the Jews were gifted were pure gems IMO.