The Big Bad Read - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalwendë · 09-21-2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

As for Heathcliffe, he's an absolute monster of manipulation, cunning, cruelty, self-satisfaction, vengeance. Who'd have thought Yorkshiremen and women would be so hapless in the hands of an ilk such as him? And that ending! I can't think of another romance that ends any creepier. Boy, that parson's daughter had some imagination--assuming there weren't any sources for him in the neighbourhood which Emily drew upon.

You never know in Haworth, its a rum place, the West Riding. Also spawned Mr Hughes.

Heathcliffe of course was a scouser, and anyone in the UK knows the terror they can strike into the heart of the God fearin' honest folk (I'm allowed to get away with saying that because my mother's one). What about Cathy though? Let's not put all the blame on H; she was a vain, self-centred thing.

Personally I always found Mr Rochester much nicer, even though he himself wasn't the purest of souls what with his locked up wives and deception of Jane.

My other favourites form that list are (of course) Dracula, who has loomed large in my mind since I frst heard of him (via a Hammer horror) and Mrs Coulter, who is not in the end a 'boo-hiss' villain - I'll say no more so as not to spoil the books for anyone yet to read them. But what she does at Bolvangar is probably quite enough to fix her as utterly beyond redemption in most readers' minds. I'm looking forward to seeing Nicole Kidman play her, as she can do cold, chilling badness very well.

Farael · 09-21-2006, 04:55 PM

or three questions in one

My favourite LoTR Villain? That has to be the Witch King. When he speaks, it sends a shiver down your spine. He's outright rotten, even if he was not so once a long time ago. Yes, he is not completely his own Master, his will is bent to Sauron's, and yet he is much more real... Sauron in LoTR is too abstract to be scary.

But my favourite baddie in all of Tolkien's work? ah, when we add the Silmarillion to the equation then Sauron wins by a landslide. Morgoth is as bad as they get, but he's again too abstract (less abstract than Sauron in LoTR but still a bit too out there. Yet Sauron.... we get to learn a bit more about him on the Sil, so that when you read about his work in LoTR he is no longer a big red eye standing atop a mighty fortress... he's the same guy who ensnared the elves (elves! and he messed with them!) of Eregion, the same guy who fought with Beren and Luthien (and lost)... and the list goes on.

My favourite bad guy on that list? well, Sauron, 'cos I plain old don't really know any others. And no, Zaphoid is NOT a villian.

Laitoste · 09-26-2006, 05:26 PM

My favorite bad guy? The Ring, unless you count it as part of Sauron. How cool (in concept)/terrifying (in actuality) is an object that can take over your mind and soul? And we all can relate to it. It's the ultimate enemy--how do you fight against an inanimate object? How do you battle something that is corroding your willpower, your very being?

Other than that, the Witch King--what Farael said--or Smaug would have to be my favorites. Such delicious malice! Sauron is almost too easy to ignore--it's the Ring we worry about, the Ring that frightens us. And the only time Sauron scares me in the films is when, in Bree, the Eye suddenly flashes on the screen. I jump off the couch every time...

Oh, and favorite villain on list? Heathcliff. Hands down. Even though I don't remember the book very well, I remember being thoroughly creeped out by him--the whole thing, really.

tar-ancalime · 09-30-2006, 06:39 PM

Tee-hee...

I haven't read the Pullman series, and as I was reading through this thread (before clicking on the list), I thought you were talking about Ann Coulter!

Anyway, from the list I'd have to go with Napoleon. From Tolkien, though, I'd have to say the willow. It's vague, it's rotten through and through, and it has an incredible evil power, right in the middle of Bombadil's land. Also it has no "real" reason for wanting to ensnare the hobbits. It doesn't want the Ring, it's not working for Sauron; it's just bad news through and through.

Also the episode takes place in my favorite part of the story--the very time-consuming meandering before they get to Bree and things really start moving fast. I love the slow pace of the exposition and the trying-on of villains, as though Tolkien doesn't want to tip his hand yet: what kind of story is this going to be, anyway? By the time the hobbits get to Bree, they've already encountered Lobelia, the Black Riders, the Willow, and the Barrow-Wight, while Gandalf is already dealing with Saruman (though the reader doesn't know it yet). It's not clear yet where the real menace is, and Tolkien makes it very plain that the whole quest could just as easily be derailed by one of these "minor" baddies as by Sauron himself.

Lalwendë · 10-01-2006, 06:27 AM

Well I didn't know who you meant, I've remained blisfully unaware of her, but now I can see the similarities between the two. Meh.

I was thinking, there are some particular types of bad guys in LotR (and lots of them), and for fun I've had a go at some categories, feel free to move things around:

Simple Bad Guys (we don't see their potential for good)
Morgoth
Sauron
Witch King

The Ones Who Stray From the Path (in varying degrees)
Saruman
Denethor
Grima
Boromir
Dead Men of Dunharrow (I know, they come good)

The Exploited (used by the powers that be)
Gollum
Ungoliant
Orcs (bit controversial this one

)
Dunlendings

Natural Terrors (unpredicatable, linked to nature)
Old Man Willow
Shelob
Barrow Wights

Have some fun arguing with that lot.

The Sixth Wizard · 10-03-2006, 04:58 AM

Curses, defeated again by those Harry Potter nerds! They usurp the spotlight even more than men!!

Anyway, you guys have it completely right. You mourn the destruction of the world by Morgoth, but there is not enough detail for it to be scary. Saruman appears worse than Sauron because he is actually talking in the book, but I can tell you, even at thirteen years of age, when I first read Akkalabeth before bed one night it was pretty darn scary. Just imagining the burning, the torture, the wrath of Eru, the downfall of the blessed men. <sigh>

Oh and Feanor is not evil, just stubborn.

Macalaure · 10-03-2006, 02:30 PM

Hmmm, categories.

Simple Bad Guys
No bad guy in Tolkien's works is just a 'simple' bad guy. Even Morgoth once strayed from the path. But if this constrains itself to the scope of LotR, then it's okay. These are the true symbols of evil.

Morgoth
Sauron
Witch King / Nazgûl (they surely used to belong into the Seduced category, but by the time of LotR and the way we meet them there, they belong to the Simple Bad Guys)
The Mouth of Sauron

The Ones Who Stray From the Path (in varying degrees)
This is a very broad category. Pretty much everything can be fitted into it. I will narrow it a bit for this reason: The ones who keep their good intentions (or think they do) but on the path to them go astray.

Saruman
Denethor
Boromir

The Seduced
They started out as good guys as well, but due to an external force that seduced them they turned to evil, but kept struggling.

Gríma
Gollum

The Exploited
These already started out from the not-so-good point, or at least had a weak spot that made them receptive. The evil seed that was inside them then was used by the real bad guys.

Ungoliant
Dunlendings
Dead Men of Dunharrow
Haradrim, Easterlings, Corsairs

The Created
Baddies that were created by bigger baddies to serve their purposes. Perhaps a sub-category of The Exploited.

Orcs
Werewolves and Wargs
Trolls

Natural Terrors
The baddies that act without a purpose, just out of themselves.

Old Man Willow
Shelob
Barrow Wights (probably started out as Exploited, while the old Angmar existed)
The Watcher in the Water
The Sackville-Bagginses
The Balrog (again someone who started out as Simple or Seduced, but in LotR he acts out of his own mind)
Smaug (the same)
Caradhras?

Where can we put Ferny or Saruman's thugs?

09-21-2006, 04:55 PM	#2
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	A three pronged question or three questions in one My favourite LoTR Villain? That has to be the Witch King. When he speaks, it sends a shiver down your spine. He's outright rotten, even if he was not so once a long time ago. Yes, he is not completely his own Master, his will is bent to Sauron's, and yet he is much more real... Sauron in LoTR is too abstract to be scary. But my favourite baddie in all of Tolkien's work? ah, when we add the Silmarillion to the equation then Sauron wins by a landslide. Morgoth is as bad as they get, but he's again too abstract (less abstract than Sauron in LoTR but still a bit too out there. Yet Sauron.... we get to learn a bit more about him on the Sil, so that when you read about his work in LoTR he is no longer a big red eye standing atop a mighty fortress... he's the same guy who ensnared the elves (elves! and he messed with them!) of Eregion, the same guy who fought with Beren and Luthien (and lost)... and the list goes on. My favourite bad guy on that list? well, Sauron, 'cos I plain old don't really know any others. And no, Zaphoid is NOT a villian. __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

09-26-2006, 05:26 PM	#3
Laitoste Wight Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Behind the hills Posts: 164	Zaphod Beeblebrox? What? My favorite bad guy? The Ring, unless you count it as part of Sauron. How cool (in concept)/terrifying (in actuality) is an object that can take over your mind and soul? And we all can relate to it. It's the ultimate enemy--how do you fight against an inanimate object? How do you battle something that is corroding your willpower, your very being? Other than that, the Witch King--what Farael said--or Smaug would have to be my favorites. Such delicious malice! Sauron is almost too easy to ignore--it's the Ring we worry about, the Ring that frightens us. And the only time Sauron scares me in the films is when, in Bree, the Eye suddenly flashes on the screen. I jump off the couch every time... Oh, and favorite villain on list? Heathcliff. Hands down. Even though I don't remember the book very well, I remember being thoroughly creeped out by him--the whole thing, really. __________________ "If we're still alive in the morning, we'll know that we're not dead."~South Park Last edited by Laitoste; 09-26-2006 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Forgot something...

09-30-2006, 06:39 PM	#4
tar-ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: abaft the beam Posts: 303	Tee-hee... I haven't read the Pullman series, and as I was reading through this thread (before clicking on the list), I thought you were talking about Ann Coulter! Anyway, from the list I'd have to go with Napoleon. From Tolkien, though, I'd have to say the willow. It's vague, it's rotten through and through, and it has an incredible evil power, right in the middle of Bombadil's land. Also it has no "real" reason for wanting to ensnare the hobbits. It doesn't want the Ring, it's not working for Sauron; it's just bad news through and through. Also the episode takes place in my favorite part of the story--the very time-consuming meandering before they get to Bree and things really start moving fast. I love the slow pace of the exposition and the trying-on of villains, as though Tolkien doesn't want to tip his hand yet: what kind of story is this going to be, anyway? By the time the hobbits get to Bree, they've already encountered Lobelia, the Black Riders, the Willow, and the Barrow-Wight, while Gandalf is already dealing with Saruman (though the reader doesn't know it yet). It's not clear yet where the real menace is, and Tolkien makes it very plain that the whole quest could just as easily be derailed by one of these "minor" baddies as by Sauron himself. __________________ Having fun wolfing it to the bitter end, I see, gaur-ancalime (lmp, ww13) Last edited by tar-ancalime; 09-30-2006 at 06:51 PM. Reason: didn't answer the questions yet! silly me!

10-01-2006, 06:27 AM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Well I didn't know who you meant, I've remained blisfully unaware of her, but now I can see the similarities between the two. Meh. I was thinking, there are some particular types of bad guys in LotR (and lots of them), and for fun I've had a go at some categories, feel free to move things around: Simple Bad Guys (we don't see their potential for good) Morgoth Sauron Witch King The Ones Who Stray From the Path (in varying degrees) Saruman Denethor Grima Boromir Dead Men of Dunharrow (I know, they come good) The Exploited (used by the powers that be) Gollum Ungoliant Orcs (bit controversial this one ) Dunlendings Natural Terrors (unpredicatable, linked to nature) Old Man Willow Shelob Barrow Wights Have some fun arguing with that lot. __________________ Gordon's alive!

10-03-2006, 04:58 AM	#6
The Sixth Wizard Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stuck under a rock in Valinor with Ar-Pharazon. Posts: 480	Curses, defeated again by those Harry Potter nerds! They usurp the spotlight even more than men!! Anyway, you guys have it completely right. You mourn the destruction of the world by Morgoth, but there is not enough detail for it to be scary. Saruman appears worse than Sauron because he is actually talking in the book, but I can tell you, even at thirteen years of age, when I first read Akkalabeth before bed one night it was pretty darn scary. Just imagining the burning, the torture, the wrath of Eru, the downfall of the blessed men. <sigh> Oh and Feanor is not evil, just stubborn.

10-03-2006, 02:30 PM	#7
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	Hmmm, categories. Simple Bad Guys No bad guy in Tolkien's works is just a 'simple' bad guy. Even Morgoth once strayed from the path. But if this constrains itself to the scope of LotR, then it's okay. These are the true symbols of evil. Morgoth Sauron Witch King / Nazgûl (they surely used to belong into the Seduced category, but by the time of LotR and the way we meet them there, they belong to the Simple Bad Guys) The Mouth of Sauron The Ones Who Stray From the Path (in varying degrees) This is a very broad category. Pretty much everything can be fitted into it. I will narrow it a bit for this reason: The ones who keep their good intentions (or think they do) but on the path to them go astray. Saruman Denethor Boromir The Seduced They started out as good guys as well, but due to an external force that seduced them they turned to evil, but kept struggling. Gríma Gollum The Exploited These already started out from the not-so-good point, or at least had a weak spot that made them receptive. The evil seed that was inside them then was used by the real bad guys. Ungoliant Dunlendings Dead Men of Dunharrow Haradrim, Easterlings, Corsairs The Created Baddies that were created by bigger baddies to serve their purposes. Perhaps a sub-category of The Exploited. Orcs Werewolves and Wargs Trolls Natural Terrors The baddies that act without a purpose, just out of themselves. Old Man Willow Shelob Barrow Wights (probably started out as Exploited, while the old Angmar existed) The Watcher in the Water The Sackville-Bagginses The Balrog (again someone who started out as Simple or Seduced, but in LotR he acts out of his own mind) Smaug (the same) Caradhras? Where can we put Ferny or Saruman's thugs?