The Tolkien Coming of Age Club 2

[piosenniel]

I do like the sculptures featured in that Shire development you pointed out, Child.

I live @ 120 miles from Bend, where the development is going in. Maybe I can budget the extra gas dollars for a road trip to see what's what.

~*~ Pio

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Wow, isn't the swordsman's cottage interesting! Though given my budget a rowhouse would be more appropriate....

Thanks for the link Pio.

[Mithalwen]

I have to say, and I do realise that I am lucky in that I live where I can see if not live in the real thing, that I think this is just hideous and twee. It would be like living on a film set or in a theme park. I'd rather have an eco home or a roundhouse.

[piosenniel]

Bend, Oregon is a place where many wealthy . . . ahem, Californians . . . own vacation homes, have relocated, etc. etc. So the thought of them wanting to live in a well regulated/theme parky sort of place really doesn't seem too far out, imho

~*~ Pio

[Mithalwen]

That makes sense then ... also the prices ... scotches my impression that property prices were much cheaper in the States....

It does remind me of the story (and it may be apocryphal and I know not all americans are like this before I get flamed ... some of my best friends are American...) of the American tourist who when asked what he thought of Windsor Castle, replied that it was great but he couldn't understand why they had built it so close to Heathrow Airport....

[Lalwendë]

For it be a genuinely authentic English village it would need the following: a tetchy farmer with several illegal firearms hidden under his bed and who likes shouting "Get orf my land!", a bus service which turns up twice a week, a postmistress who knows everyone's business, a pair of fussy spinster vergers who tut every time they pass the pub and are viciously territorial about their rights to arrange the flowers in church, some sulky teenagers hanging round the back of the village hall, a smattering of aluminium industrial sheds put up by farmers with EU subsidies just to obscure everyone's nice view.

My mum lived in a thatched cottage and woke up one night to find every surface in her room crawling with huge black beetles that had come out of the thatch. So beware if you fancy a 'chocolate box cottage' one day...

[davem]

'Bend'

Come, friendly bombs, and fall on Bend
It isn't fit for humans, end
The bland, pretentious, ugly trend
Of plastic thatch

Come, bombs, and blow to smithereens
Those air-conditioned, bright demenes
Fake homes, fake lives, fake thoughts, fake scenes
Fake minds; dispatch.

(with apologies to John Betjeman)

[Child of the 7th Age]

davem,

Perhaps you'd prefer Isengard?

Bombing faux houses or their residents into the ground seems a bit extreme. This dwelling is not my kind of thing but I don't see any harm in it, and I like the sculpture Pio found.

Now, I am speaking as a Texan. In the American West, real earth-sheltered dwellings have a long and proud history and were used extensively by the settlers. Simple and sturdy, made of sod, they were incredibly effective in keeping out the bitter winter blizzards. The original ones were a long way from Kitsch, and I suspect that more than one Sam Gamgee type was born in such humble surroundings.

There are still folk in the upper midwest and plains states who carry on this earth sheltered tradition and add a bit of Tolkien into the equation just for fun. See here.

Perhaps you'd like a sod house?

P.S. Where in the blazes is "Valimar"?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Now for another example of American charm, well sort of. I hope it won't be seeing any bombs, anyway.

The Bake House at the Ephrata Cloister

They've got a room reserved for me, but no place to plug in the computer!
Hilde's room

[Lalwendë]

I have to ask what's wrong with davem's use of Sir John Betjeman's Slough? In the spirit of the original it does not want Bend to be bombed, but makes an ironic point about fake plastic towns. Of course not all readers might understand the concept of metaphor or irony, but this is one of Britain's most beloved poems and it was used entirely in the spirit of it.

I understand Tolkien himself liked Betjeman too, both were men of a similar mind, so please let's step back from thinking there's any malice, because there wasn't. It's called British humour, something Tolkien's books are filled with. And to underline the point about irony, Slough was bombed in the war and nobody held Betjeman responsible or strung him up from a lamp-post in front of a bogus Tudor bar.

Getting quite fed up with the vendetta now. It's childish. And please think about that before censoring my comments.

Here's the original:

Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough!
It isn't fit for humans now,
There isn't grass to graze a cow.
Swarm over, Death!

Come, bombs and blow to smithereens
Those air -conditioned, bright canteens,
Tinned fruit, tinned meat, tinned milk, tinned beans,
Tinned minds, tinned breath.

Mess up the mess they call a town-
A house for ninety-seven down
And once a week a half a crown
For twenty years.

And get that man with double chin
Who'll always cheat and always win,
Who washes his repulsive skin
In women's tears:

And smash his desk of polished oak
And smash his hands so used to stroke
And stop his boring dirty joke
And make him yell.

But spare the bald young clerks who add
The profits of the stinking cad;
It's not their fault that they are mad,
They've tasted Hell.

It's not their fault they do not know
The birdsong from the radio,
It's not their fault they often go
To Maidenhead

And talk of sport and makes of cars
In various bogus-Tudor bars
And daren't look up and see the stars
But belch instead.

In labour-saving homes, with care
Their wives frizz out peroxide hair
And dry it in synthetic air
And paint their nails.

Come, friendly bombs and fall on Slough
To get it ready for the plough.
The cabbages are coming now;
The earth exhales.

[piosenniel]

Originally Posted by davem

Fake homes, fake lives, fake thoughts, fake scenes
Fake minds; dispatch.

Actually, it seemed right on, to me. And funny . . .

Thanks for the original poem, Lal -

. . . It's not their fault they often go
To Maidenhead

And talk of sport and makes of cars
In various bogus-Tudor bars
And daren't look up and see the stars
But belch instead . . .

Even funnier and more pointed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Child

I think that Valimar was probably supposed to be Valimart - the Elvish equivalent of Walmart (I'm sure I recall this as mentioned in one of those much overlooked footnotes in Sauron Defeated.)

Bur REALLY --- there is a Valimar:

A name of the city of the Valar in Valinor, more commonly referred to as 'Valmar'; the city of many bells in the east of Valinor where many of the Valar dwelt. The Two Trees of Valinor grew nearby on the mound of Ezellohar.

Nessa, the wife of Tulkas and sister to Oromë often dances there --

". . . she also is lithe and fleetfooted. Deer she loves, and they follow her train whenever she goes in the wild; but she can outrun them, swift as an arrow with the wind in her hair. In dancing she delights, and she dances in Valimar on lawns of never-fading green."
--Valaquenta

~*~ Pio

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Sauron Defeated? Surely you mean that mainstay of the HoME Extended Edition, Things J.R.R. Tolkien probably said (vol. XLI). I believe the comment was written on a beer mat advertising Theakstons Old Peculier, beside "What's it all about? I mean really, when you get down to it."

I wonder how much of the recent popularity of Slough is due to its use in series 1 of The Office. Naturally, I was nearly getting into fights by quoting it too loudly long before then.

Originally Posted by Original Sin on the Sussex Coast

As certain as the sun behind the Downs
And quite as plain to see, the Devil walks

[Lalwendë]

My only problem was that he has spelled demesne incorrectly.

Sure it's not bland humour, but it's irony, and irony is not bland. Anyone might find a lot of it in LotR. So, I presume this is what he has been banned for again? Seeing as he has been denied the common courtesy of being told why this time?

And yes I will stick out my neck and ask why and challenge this as it is very, very silly.

The Downs is becoming a frightening place.

[piosenniel]

Aaah, that was it, Squatter, the HoME E E . . . I'll beg off, saying, that it's quite late here and a long shift at work has befuddled me.

In the befuddled vein . . . I've always wondered where the Peculier, in Old Peculier comes from. Does anyone know?

And thanks for the intro to John Betjeman. Ignorant git that I am I'd never heard of him. I did google him and read a number of his poems - quite delightful.

Oh, for anyone else not familiar with 'Original sin on the Sussex Coast' by him, here's the poem in full:


Original Sin on the Sussex Coast - Sir John Betjeman

Now on this out of season afternoon
Day schools which cater for the sort of boy
Whose parents go by Pullman once a month
To do a show in town, pour out their young
Into the sharply red October light.
Here were The Drive and Buckhurst Road converge
I watch the rival gangs and am myself
A schoolboy once again in shivering shorts.
I see the dust of sherbet on the chin
Of Andrew Knox well-dress’d, well-born, well-fed,
Even at nine a perfect gentleman,
Willie Buchanan waiting at his side—
Another Scot, eruptions on his skin.
I hear Jack Drayton whistling from the fence
Which hides the copper domes of "Cooch Behar".
That was the signal. So there’s no escape.
A race for Willow Way and jump the hedge
Behind the Granville Bowling Club? Too late.
They’ll catch me coming out in Seapink Lane.
Across the Garden of Remembrance? No,
That would be blasphemy and bring bad luck.
Well then, I’m for it. Andrew’s at me first,
He pinions me in that especial grip
His brother learned in Kobe from a Jap
(No chance for me against the Japanese).
Willie arrives and winds me with a punch
Plum in the tummy, grips the other arm.
"You’re to be booted. Hold him steady, chaps!"
A wait for taking aim. Oh trees and sky!
Then crack against the column of my spine,
Blackness and breathlessness and sick with pain
I stumble on the asphalt. Off they go
Away, away, thank God, and out of sight
So that I lie quite still and climb to sense
Too out of breath and strength to make a sound.

Now over Polegate vastly sets the sun;
Dark rise the Downs from darker looking elms,
And out of Southern railway trains to tea
Run happy boys down various Station Roads,
Satchels of homework jogging on their backs,
So trivial and so healthy in the shade
Of these enormous Downs. And when they’re home,
When the Post-Toasties mixed with Golden Shred
Make for the kiddies such a scrumptious feast,
Does Mum, the Persil-user, still believe
That there’s no Devil and that youth is bliss?
As certain as the sun behind the Downs
And quite as plain to see, the Devil walks.

[The Saucepan Man]

Lal

I agree that it is only fair to explain why davem has been banned.

It was not because of his parody of Slough. It was perhaps a somewhat harsh reaction on his part to the conversation, particularly as it was given without any context, and it was capable of giving offence. But it was certainly not, in itself, something that would ever result in a ban.

Davem was banned because of what might be called a course of conduct. Having justifiably had a temporary ban imposed upon him for having used unrestrained, disrespectful and insulting language on the Lord of the Bible thread, he returned more or less unrepentant and continued to question the basis for that ban. Even when he eventually decided to leave that thread, he “carried the fight” on to other threads such as First Editions and Tolkien’s Literary Executor. The parting "asides" in posts such as this were clear and deliberate attempts to question that basis for his temporary ban and challenge the authority of those who imposed it.

But, for me, the straw that broke the camel’s back was his ugly post on the Lord of the Rings labelled racist thread. Fundamentalism aside, Christian beliefs are perfectly acceptable, both on this board and in wider society. Racist beliefs are not. Whatever the philosophical niceties of the argument, to suggest that those claiming a Christian subtext to LotR may be compared to those claiming a racist subtext was, in my view, shameful (and, as I have made clear many times, I am not a particularly religious person).

The forum policies state very clearly that flaming, trolling and insulting behaviour are not acceptable on this forum. They are hardly difficult to observe (the overwhelming majority of members having no difficulty keeping to them) and they are there for a reason. They help make this place what it is. Anyone who has been to a less refined, less organised forum will understand what I mean here. It is simply not acceptable to go around ignoring those policies and riding roughshod over the feelings of other members.

Davem was warned on many occasions about his behaviour, but chose to ignore those warnings. No one takes any delight in seeing a member like him banned but, if he is incapable of abiding by the forum policies, then the question arises whether he should be here. As in any society, one must abide by the rules that govern it and heed the polite requests of those who are charged with enforcing them. As I have said, the rules here are hardly onerous.

A significant amount of Mod and Admin time has been taken up with addressing davem’s behaviour. Mods and admins are not paid. They do what they do voluntarily. And there comes a point at which they are no longer prepared to waste their time dealing with a member who is clearly not prepared to listen to them.

In any event, ultimately, the Barrow-Wight took the view that davem was taking up too much Admin/Mod time and, since it was clear that he was not prepared to modify his behaviour, decided to ban him. That was the Barrow-Wight's decision, although I must say that it is one which, in all the circumstances, I agree with.

I hope that’s clear.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Originally Posted by piosenniel

I've always wondered where the Peculier, in Old Peculier comes from. Does anyone know?

Here's the full story about that peculiar name straight from the horse's mouth.

Yes, Slough is quite biting, but that's essential to its message. However, as Saucepan has been very forthcoming above, I think we can discount any controversial effect here. John Betjeman is a poet who sometimes divides critical opinion, but there is nearly always a philosophical point behind his suburban themes. The centenary of his birth was celebrated recently, so he's been back in the limelight in Britain of late, which can only be a good thing. A defence of his poetry was published by the current Poet Laureate, Andrew Motion, in last month's Radio Times.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by piosenniel

Aaah, that was it, Squatter, the HoME E E . . . I'll beg off, saying, that it's quite late here and a long shift at work has befuddled me.

In the befuddled vein . . . I've always wondered where the Peculier, in Old Peculier comes from. Does anyone know?

And thanks for the intro to John Betjeman. Ignorant git that I am I'd never heard of him. I did google him and read a number of his poems - quite delightful.

.

A "peculiar" is usually a church as in a "Royal Peculiar" which are under the authority of the crown rather than the diocese in which they lie




Theakston 's case is a little different save that it is cleary the same sense of the word to mean particular rather than strange!!!

Betjeman was our Poet Laureate and made a number of television programmes which made him more recognisable than the average poet. I am a lot of his stuff doesn't "travel" well since it is so linked to a particular time and place. While he is somewhat Eeyorish (someone saidf that depression was to Betjeman what daffodils were to wordsworth...)... the Slough poem is extremely well known here and what ever other issues are, I find it highly unlikely that anything other than humour was intended ....

[Snowdog]

G'Day Barrowwights! I had a cup of coffee in my Barrow Downs coffee cup and realized i hadn't been by in ages.

Originally Posted by piosenniel

Bend, Oregon is a place where many wealthy . . . ahem, Californians . . . own vacation homes, have relocated, etc. etc. So the thought of them wanting to live in a well regulated/theme parky sort of place really doesn't seem too far out, imho

~*~ Pio

There is the exceptional Deschutes Brewery in Bend though. Love the Twilight Ale, the Mirror Pond, the Black Butte Porter, and the Obsidian Stout!

Oh, a banning! Been there, done that. It doesn't pay to battle the authorities of a messageboard if you wish to stay, even if the mod/admins enforcement of said boards policies seems to you to be uneven.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I don't think I follow you Saucy.

I'm afraid I fail to see the connetion between what you say and what I read in the links you provided, and I also fail to see the reason for your post only being here. I would think it more appropiate also to give this info a place where everybody would see it- since it has a lot of people confused.

[The Saucepan Man]

Rune

It is not our policy to make general announcements when members are banned. My post above was made to respond specifically to the confusion which arose on this thread and to correct a misunderstanding which had occurred.

Davem was behaving in a manner which the moderators and admins of the Downs (who give their time voluntarily to run and manage this site for the benefit of all of its members) considered to be disruptive and contrary to the forum policies against disrespectful and offensive posting. Despite many warnings, he continued to do so. In light of this, and having seen a considerable amount of time spent by the mods and admins in debate over the situation, the Barrow-Wight made the decision to ban him without further explanation. Davem was well aware of what led to his banishment.

It was a decision taken in good faith, in what was considered to be the best interests of the Downs. It is not, however, a matter upon which any of the mods or admins intend to engage in further debate.

[mark12_30]

How's the pup doing, Saucie? I have a weak spot for a good dog. Mine's a treasure.

On another topic, I suddenly feel inclined to mention: Raefindel has been churning out gorgeous cards, at an impressive rate. I am particulary blessed to have been a steady recipient. She is a very faithful correspondant, so the area over my dresser has become a display for her artwork. Unfortunately I very rarely put pen to paper. Had I the blank wallspace I might consider papering it with her cards...

If you find your interest or curiosity piqued, do drop her a line, as she has been building up an inventory.

Has anybody listened to the last RIVENDELL album by Tolkien Ensemble? I fully intend to buy it, once it shows up in the stores. But I'm very eager to hear some reviews...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Helen,

Regarding the Rivendell CD...

I recently purchased the Tolkien Ensemble's Leaving Rivendell. Is this the title you're referring to, or is there a later one? I haven't even had a chance to take off the plastic cover, but hope to listen over the weekend.

[mark12_30]

Yes, that's the one. It's at Amazon--

Leaving Rivendell

...but there are no clips...

[Rikae]

Oh, my goodness ...I just barely qualify to join the club. I read LotR for the first time in 1987 ( that is, when I was eight...er...let's just say months old ). May I crash the party?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Pull up a chair and make yourself at home Rikae!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

Pull up a chair and make yourself at home Rikae!

Make that a rocking chair. And close the door behind you youngun, you want me to catch a chill?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Oh, it looks like the next project will be weaving Fordim a shawl! Wonder if there are any runes that protect from the common cold...wouldn't hurt to include a few tastefully placed along the border.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

Wonder if there are any runes that protect from the common cold...wouldn't hurt to include a few tastefully placed along the border.

Ohhh! What an excellent idea, Hilde! After all, if information about the Underground Railroad was sewn into quilts in nineteenth century America, who's to say that runes wouldn't provide some useful reading for Fordim to do even if he perchance still contacted a cold?

[Nogrod]

Or then one might just take on the old Estonian custom. When one is having a flu, just dip your socks in booze (clear one, like Vodka) and wear them overnight... They say it works (I've never tried but tend to believe that these age-old traditions tend to "work").

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've tried dipping one's self in booze overnight....didn't get rid of the flu but somehow I didn't seem to mind as much....

I love the idea of a shawl. I like bright colours. Green is nice.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I can just see buying an large bottle of vodka and demurely telling the shop keeper that it is for my feet! I wonder if it works...at least my feet would be squeaky clean and santized after that...socks too!

Fordrim, I've a nice green wool shawl in the closet already that I could lend you, Unfortunately it is embroidered with bright posies. I didn't think you'd go for that. No, I think it best to make one, maybe green with gold thread?

[Child of the 7th Age]

I wanted to share this with someone, although perhaps I'm the last one to stumble onto it? It is a linguistic site called the Glǽmscrafu, or Glittering Caves that started in July 2006. It's real ear candy and the perfect site for codgers in rocking chairs.

This French site has a lengthy list of words and names invented by Tolkien. . Click on any of these and you wll hear the sonorous voice of JRRT pronouncing the particular Elvish word or phrase. I own a recording of Tolkien reading from certain texts, but I've never seen it broken down like this. I have now learned how badly I've been pronouncing some of these words, despite the syllabic guides presented on other sites.

If you click on the site's "Cellar", you can also reach a wide assortment of texts ---Tolkien's poems in the original languages plus samples of related tongues like Finnish, Welsh, or Gothic. Once again, if you click the link to the right side, you can hear a brief extract from many of these.

I've never heard anything quite like this, or maybe there are others I don't know. Apparently the site has been developed by Bertrand Bellet and Benjamin Babut, who are with the Sindarin dictionary project. Even Carl F. Hostetter is encouraging them to try and get the estate's blessing on the dictionary (a separate site) to get it published. Anyways, these velvet sounds are a perfect accompaniment to my old rocking chair.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Cool!

[piosenniel]

WW, Child!

Thanks for the link

~*~ Pio

[Mithadan]

Excellent site!

Sorry I haven't been around much lately.

[mark12_30]

Hey, who was that guy?? Looked kinda familiar.

[Mithadan]

M-m-m-m-mark? I don't recall you having a stutter...

[mark12_30]

*Sniff sniff*

**Pokes corpse**

Yup, that's definitely him, all right.



Well, shut mah mouth.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Nice to see you back and posting, Mithadan!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Welcome back, Grey Man. Whatever you did on your sabbatical it's obviously recharged your batteries. It's been a while since I saw so prolific a return.