Tolkien's 'Smith of Wootton Major' & George MacDonald's 'Phantastes': A Comparison - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mark12_30 · 10-01-2006, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

This last was especially intriguing, and points up some more differences:
In SWoM, the tree is a birch; in Phantastes it's a beech.

Quote:

"I may love him, I may love him, for he is a man, and I am only a beech-tree."

Haunting and mysterious-- I remember reading and rereading that line, trying to get my thoughts around it.

What struck me in Phantastes was the difference between the protective tree, and the Ash-- the protective tree felt dangerous, meaning mysterious and unpredictable; but not terrifying like the Ash tree. Why did she love, and why offer a part of her strength in protection? It was completely sacrificial. Why? Just because? What am I supposed to take away from that?

The Ash Tree reminds me of Old Man Willow, or an Ent gone so terribly bad it's not funny. Maybe Tom Bombadil gone bad. Yeeks.

Come to that, the Beech reminds me of Goldberry, of her golden sanctuary that she offered from the Storm. Except that Goldberry doesn't suffer in giving the sanctuary; the Beech does. (Straying, aren't I? Sorry.)

At the moment (without rereading them both) the main difference between Smith and Phantastes is that while Smith is mostly mysterious, Phantastes is too, but is also very Dark. Phantastes has all the darkness of Mirkwood, Fangorn, and the Old Forest put together-- plus nasty trollish things, and worse. Smith never oppressed me that way, and conjures some mix of Lorien, the Shire, & Rivendell. But I suppose all that could be due to faulty memory...

I shall see if I can find the time to reread Phantastes, and Smith.

EDIT: But for bedtme reading I'm definitely NOT reading Phantastes. Even the cover creeps me out. Smith it is...

littlemanpoet · 10-02-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark12_30

What struck me in Phantastes was the difference between the protective tree, and the Ash-- the protective tree felt dangerous, meaning mysterious and unpredictable; but not terrifying like the Ash tree. Why did she love, and why offer a part of her strength in protection? It was completely sacrificial. Why? Just because? What am I supposed to take away from that?

Let me answer with a question: if your husband's life was in danger and you could save him by plucking out your eyelashes and placing the lashes around him in a protective circle, would you do it?

She does it just because ... love.

But what in Fairy does she love about/in him? His humanity?

Funny though, the Beech Tree/woman didn't strike me as unpredictable; mysterious, yes. But she was so given to Anados in love that unpreditability doesn't fit for me.

Quote:

The Ash Tree reminds me of Old Man Willow, or an Ent gone so terribly bad it's not funny. Maybe Tom Bombadil gone bad. Yeeks.

Old Man Willow or an Ent, yes. Bombadil's more of an Earth entity than a tree entity. I'll keep my eyes open for Bombadil comparisons as I read Phantastes.

Quote:

Come to that, the Beech reminds me of Goldberry, of her golden sanctuary that she offered from the Storm. Except that Goldberry doesn't suffer in giving the sanctuary; the Beech does. (Straying, aren't I? Sorry.)

Well, it's still Tolkien, so that's okay.

Quote:

At the moment (without rereading them both) the main difference between Smith and Phantastes is that while Smith is mostly mysterious, Phantastes is too, but is also very Dark. Phantastes has all the darkness of Mirkwood, Fangorn, and the Old Forest put together-- plus nasty trollish things, and worse. Smith never oppressed me that way, and conjures some mix of Lorien, the Shire, & Rivendell. But I suppose all that could be due to faulty memory...

Interesting. Now that you mention it, Phantastes IS very dark. Especially at night (of course). But more than dark, it's wild. Wilder than SoWM somehow. Perhaps the wildness has to do with the sheer abundance of creatures of the wild, whereas the sense of Fairy in SWoM is of numinous intensity and power. The Wind and the Elves from the Silent Sea, for example, have more of an airy, spirit/breath power than the earthy, rainy, branch and snake and bramble wildness of Phantastes.

Quote:

EDIT: But for bedtme reading I'm definitely NOT reading Phantastes. Even the cover creeps me out. Smith it is...

Heh, that's exactly when I DO read it.

mark12_30 · 10-02-2006, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The Wind and the Elves from the Silent Sea, for example, have more of an airy, spirit/breath power than the earthy, rainy, branch and snake and bramble wildness of Phantastes.

Okay; brambles, earth, rain &c, I dig. But over/under/behind all that is the sheer terror. Or horror. No, I think terror is more like it. The Ash isn't horrifying, it's terrifying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Heh, that's exactly when I DO read it.

Egads. And you're telling me you don't have nightmares? Brrr.

Where was the hollow-backed woman? She was freakiness incarnate. Was that Phantastes or Lilith? More Brrr.

littlemanpoet · 10-03-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Where was the hollow-backed woman? She was freakiness incarnate. Was that Phantastes or Lilith? More Brrr.

Phantastes. Just read that this morning. "The Maiden of the Alder", who led Anodos along so she could remove the beech-necklace he wore as protection, so that she could give him to the Ash. Hollow-backed doesn't quite do it justice: she was a hollowed out tree in the shape of a human form fitting coffin in back. Yes, creepy! Just imagine looking at the one side then it turns and you see the other! Either way you do it, it's ...... okay to read in a book, but I wouldn't want to experience it.

Terror is right.

I think I've found a comparable character in Phantastes to Ted Sandyman. More on that later.

littlemanpoet · 10-03-2006, 06:05 PM

SWoM is said to be allegorical. Is that also true of Phantastes? Are there degrees of "purposed domination by the author"?

The story can be found here (thanks to Lal): Phantastes

mark12_30 · 10-12-2006, 05:33 PM

...and if you put it into .lit format using a Word plugin, then you can have the computer read it to you while you drive. Bwah ha haha.

The Microsoft Reader voice is flat and emotionless and yet the story STILL is gripping.

Using this technique, Anodos (and I) are now past the Alder woman (eeeeewwww el mucho creeepio) and into the house at the edge of the wood.

Sometimes I think the Ash tree is a rotten Ent. Only it can't be, because the Ash tree itself isn't walking; the spirit of the Ash tree is. So it's a sort of dryad? A male, eeeevil dryad.

Singing out of prison and into life. Me likey. Shades of, well, lots of things.

ps elempi, I like the new addition to your sig.

mark12_30 · 10-13-2006, 04:44 PM

Anodos in the Faery palace

.....has his own room, in which he is served by invisible hands. There is also a set of clothes laid out for him that are Just RIght for him. (Frodo wakening in Rivendell to find a set of green clothes that fitted him excellently.)

When Anodos goes swimming in the palace, he can see forms that he had not seen before.

GM does this sometimes-- Golden Key, for one. But with Tolkien, how often does this happen? I remember only Frodo, especially after Weathertop, but generally because of the Ring.

It doesn't ring a bell with Smith of Wootton Major. lmp? I've only just begun with Smith again.

Anodos in the Faery Library reading books-- Story (after Story) within a story-- doesn't happen much in Smith, does it? Happens aplenty in LOTR, although with a different flavor, mostly in song rather than in books. If we extend the metaphor that Faery Palace is akin to Rivendell, then for Frodo it's the songs rather than the books, and they have a similar effect.

Enchantment comes to Frodo through song-- echoed by Anodos' enchantment in the Faery 'bath'. I wonder whether Bolco's love of Evendim was affected by Anodos's Faery bath. Definitely by the various baths in Golden Key.

Anodos says that, while reading a story in the Faery Library, he becomes the story, and then is startled by his environment when he gets to the end of the faery-book.

Whereas Sam & Frodo realise they are IN a story, for real. Different than becoming it as you read it only to be rudely awakened at the end.

Smith is too fuzzy in my memory...

Folwren · 10-18-2006, 11:43 AM

Interesting topic, Elempi.

I have very little to say because I read both those stories some time ago and don't remember either of them very well.

However, my opinion on this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

SWoM is said to be allegorical. Is that also true of Phantastes? Are there degrees of "purposed domination by the author"?

Pop and my older sister have both read Phantastes and both like it and I am pretty sure that they both saw some sort of allegory in it, but I have to admit that it escapes me. However, I will say that I can't imagine MacDonald writing anything without some allegorical meaning to it.

Have you read Lilith, Elempi? I think Pop and my sister liked that one even better than Phantastes.

As for me, I prefer SoWM to Phantastes, so far as I recall.

Do you think that Tolkien, as well as Lewis, learned from and used some of MacDonald's writings and teachings and lessons?

-- Folwren

Lalwendë · 10-18-2006, 01:11 PM

Meant to post this a while back, after lmp asked me what I meant in another post!

Yes, Phantastes is sometimes said to be an allegorical work about the need for the human to shrug off the carnal and accept the spiritual. However I've heard otherwise (e.g. the stories are quite Jungian), and apparently MacDonald wasn't happy with those who simply said "this book is an allegory" as he claimed it was much more complex than that. Of course, MacDonald had some individualistic ideas about God and Christ, so it would not be easy to pinpoint the allegorical elements unless you knew MacDonald's philosophies (broadly, he disliked Calvinism, and predestination). I'll have to ask davem to dig it out for me and have another look.

I don't know about SoWM being allegorical. It all seems too familiar and real to me to be allegory.

10-03-2006, 06:05 PM	#5
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	SWoM is said to be allegorical. Is that also true of Phantastes? Are there degrees of "purposed domination by the author"? The story can be found here (thanks to Lal): Phantastes Last edited by littlemanpoet; 10-03-2006 at 06:14 PM.

10-12-2006, 05:33 PM	#6
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	...and if you put it into .lit format using a Word plugin, then you can have the computer read it to you while you drive. Bwah ha haha. The Microsoft Reader voice is flat and emotionless and yet the story STILL is gripping. Using this technique, Anodos (and I) are now past the Alder woman (eeeeewwww el mucho creeepio) and into the house at the edge of the wood. Sometimes I think the Ash tree is a rotten Ent. Only it can't be, because the Ash tree itself isn't walking; the spirit of the Ash tree is. So it's a sort of dryad? A male, eeeevil dryad. Singing out of prison and into life. Me likey. Shades of, well, lots of things. ps elempi, I like the new addition to your sig. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

10-13-2006, 04:44 PM	#7
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Anodos in the Faery palace .....has his own room, in which he is served by invisible hands. There is also a set of clothes laid out for him that are Just RIght for him. (Frodo wakening in Rivendell to find a set of green clothes that fitted him excellently.) When Anodos goes swimming in the palace, he can see forms that he had not seen before. GM does this sometimes-- Golden Key, for one. But with Tolkien, how often does this happen? I remember only Frodo, especially after Weathertop, but generally because of the Ring. It doesn't ring a bell with Smith of Wootton Major. lmp? I've only just begun with Smith again. Anodos in the Faery Library reading books-- Story (after Story) within a story-- doesn't happen much in Smith, does it? Happens aplenty in LOTR, although with a different flavor, mostly in song rather than in books. If we extend the metaphor that Faery Palace is akin to Rivendell, then for Frodo it's the songs rather than the books, and they have a similar effect. Enchantment comes to Frodo through song-- echoed by Anodos' enchantment in the Faery 'bath'. I wonder whether Bolco's love of Evendim was affected by Anodos's Faery bath. Definitely by the various baths in Golden Key. Anodos says that, while reading a story in the Faery Library, he becomes the story, and then is startled by his environment when he gets to the end of the faery-book. Whereas Sam & Frodo realise they are IN a story, for real. Different than becoming it as you read it only to be rudely awakened at the end. Smith is too fuzzy in my memory... __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

10-18-2006, 01:11 PM	#9
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Meant to post this a while back, after lmp asked me what I meant in another post! Yes, Phantastes is sometimes said to be an allegorical work about the need for the human to shrug off the carnal and accept the spiritual. However I've heard otherwise (e.g. the stories are quite Jungian), and apparently MacDonald wasn't happy with those who simply said "this book is an allegory" as he claimed it was much more complex than that. Of course, MacDonald had some individualistic ideas about God and Christ, so it would not be easy to pinpoint the allegorical elements unless you knew MacDonald's philosophies (broadly, he disliked Calvinism, and predestination). I'll have to ask davem to dig it out for me and have another look. I don't know about SoWM being allegorical. It all seems too familiar and real to me to be allegory. __________________ Gordon's alive!