Treachery of Men Discussion/Planning Thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Celuien · 10-02-2006, 07:41 PM

I also found this website useful for Old English names.

I can't find details on Ulfast's birthdate in the Silmarillion, so I got a bit creative. I don't know how accurate this site is since I don't have a copy of HoME V on hand, but it gives these birth years for the brothers:

Quote:

425
Birth of Uldor the Accursed son of Ulfand

428
Ulfast son of Ulfand born

430
Ulwar son of Ulfand born

...which actually throws off the middle child theory. But, again, I don't think that timeline (since those spellings didn't stay

) survived editing, so I used this as an age guideline and went with the working plan here for birth order - Ulfast as the oldest child. So, in my description, Ulfast was born in 425 and will be 46 years old at the time of this game's opening. (Confusing!)

Any other suggestions on this?

piosenniel · 10-02-2006, 10:21 PM

Here's an interesting site which gives the meanings of Ulfang and sons names:

Uldor '*hideous-lord' (LR:396)
Ulfang '*hideous-beard' (LR:387,395)
Ulfast '*hideous-tangle-hair' (LR:381,396)
Ulwarth '*hideous-betrayer' (LR:396,397)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In HoM-E V, The Lost Road and Other Writings, in "The Genealogies", here's what it says about Dad and sons:

Ulfand the Swart (Ulfang the Black) - b. 100 (400 FA)
Uldor (later called the Accursed) - b. 125 (425 FA)
Ulfast - b. 128 (428 FA)
Ulwar - b. 130 (430 FA)

The first dates are the original dates given by Tolkien.

In later Tolkien chronology, the dates would have been adjusted up by 300 years. (Adjusted dates in parentheses)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anguirel · 10-03-2006, 12:50 AM

That's clearly an older version. In the Silmarillion Uldor is the youngest of the brothers. And I'd like him to remain so for this RP.

But apart from that, the ages - though higher than I expected - aren't implausible, given that we're dealing with long-lived "patriarchs" of men.

Let's swap the brother's ages to the order Ulfast, Ulwarth, Uldor. There's a strong case that that was the newer version and it's more convenient in general.

That makes Ulfang 71 in 471 FA

Ulfast 46
Ulwarth 43
Uldor 41

At this age I expect you brothers can carry-along a harem and a horde of offspring if you want...

Dimturiel is interested in playing a woman of the Ulfings.

Oh and pio, could you slip one of those handy orange links to my character's bio on the Character List? I put it up earlier if you comb this page...I think it may have been submerged in the deluge...

piosenniel · 10-03-2006, 01:35 AM

Anguirel

Your character is linked.

Dimturiel is on the lists.

Please check your PM's for questions about the brothers' birth dates.

~*~ Pio

Anguirel · 10-03-2006, 05:59 AM

pio, I have to admit your evidence is superior to mine regarding the birth order-I was only inferring from the order in which the sons of Ulfang are listed in the Silmarillion.

If we stick to your dates then

Uldor is 46
Ulfast 43
and Ulwarth 41.

However, since I invented and put in the RP's background the idea that Uldor had been more than once banished to the east for murder and rape but ultimately allowed back, there can still be some question over a struggle for legitimacy.

Personally I still prefer Uldor being youngest but I can see the facts justify it only thinly.

Oh and one other important thing - Uldor is not yet called the Accursed; though a bad lot he is not yet known to be such by the Elves and has not yet committed his act of base treachery...

Folwren · 10-03-2006, 07:55 AM

I thought it would be very interesting to have the youngest brother be the 'favorite' of the father and have the other two terribly jealous of him. I mean, it wouldn't cause as much strife if he were the oldest and getting away with lording it over everyone.

-- Folwren

Anguirel · 10-03-2006, 09:35 AM

Well, Folwren, I agree with you, but the evidence doesn't agree with me!

pio, I referred to Uldor in the background as Ulfang's "youngest, most ruthless son"-could you adjust that to "eldest, most ruthless son"?

Finally, Folwren, if you still want the middling we'll have to swap you and Celuien again...

Oh dear. The brothers seem to be becoming interchangeable by their very nature!

piosenniel · 10-03-2006, 09:38 AM

Folwren

The dates of birth have to stand as they are. Since these are characters written for by Tolkien, we have to accept the background he gave them.

So:

From HoM-E V, The Lost Road and Other Writings, in "The Genealogies", here is what Tolkien wrote and Christopher edited:

Ulfand the Swart (Ulfang the Black) - b. 100 (400 FA)

Uldor (later called the Accursed) - b. 125 (425 FA)
Ulfast - b. 128 (428 FA)
Ulwar - b. 130 (430 FA)

-----

Ulfang - 71 y/o

Uldor is 46
Ulfast 43
and Ulwarth 41

As Ang says

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you want to switch to the middle-brother, Ulfast?

10-02-2006, 10:21 PM	#2
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Here's an interesting site which gives the meanings of Ulfang and sons names: Uldor 'hideous-lord' (LR:396) Ulfang 'hideous-beard' (LR:387,395) Ulfast 'hideous-tangle-hair' (LR:381,396) Ulwarth 'hideous-betrayer' (LR:396,397) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In HoM-E V, The Lost Road and Other Writings, in "The Genealogies", here's what it says about Dad and sons: Ulfand the Swart (Ulfang the Black) - b. 100 (400 FA) Uldor (later called the Accursed) - b. 125 (425 FA) Ulfast - b. 128 (428 FA) Ulwar - b. 130 (430 FA) The first dates are the original dates given by Tolkien. In later Tolkien chronology, the dates would have been adjusted up by 300 years. (Adjusted dates in parentheses) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside. Last edited by piosenniel; 10-03-2006 at 09:29 AM.

10-03-2006, 12:50 AM	#3
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	That's clearly an older version. In the Silmarillion Uldor is the youngest of the brothers. And I'd like him to remain so for this RP. But apart from that, the ages - though higher than I expected - aren't implausible, given that we're dealing with long-lived "patriarchs" of men. Let's swap the brother's ages to the order Ulfast, Ulwarth, Uldor. There's a strong case that that was the newer version and it's more convenient in general. That makes Ulfang 71 in 471 FA Ulfast 46 Ulwarth 43 Uldor 41 At this age I expect you brothers can carry-along a harem and a horde of offspring if you want... Dimturiel is interested in playing a woman of the Ulfings. Oh and pio, could you slip one of those handy orange links to my character's bio on the Character List? I put it up earlier if you comb this page...I think it may have been submerged in the deluge... __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

10-03-2006, 01:35 AM	#4
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Anguirel Your character is linked. Dimturiel is on the lists. Please check your PM's for questions about the brothers' birth dates. ~~ Pio __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside. Last edited by piosenniel; 10-03-2006 at 02:38 AM.*

10-03-2006, 05:59 AM	#5
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	pio, I have to admit your evidence is superior to mine regarding the birth order-I was only inferring from the order in which the sons of Ulfang are listed in the Silmarillion. If we stick to your dates then Uldor is 46 Ulfast 43 and Ulwarth 41. However, since I invented and put in the RP's background the idea that Uldor had been more than once banished to the east for murder and rape but ultimately allowed back, there can still be some question over a struggle for legitimacy. Personally I still prefer Uldor being youngest but I can see the facts justify it only thinly. Oh and one other important thing - Uldor is not yet called the Accursed; though a bad lot he is not yet known to be such by the Elves and has not yet committed his act of base treachery... __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso Last edited by Anguirel; 10-03-2006 at 06:02 AM.

10-03-2006, 07:55 AM	#6
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	My two cents worth of thought. . . I thought it would be very interesting to have the youngest brother be the 'favorite' of the father and have the other two terribly jealous of him. I mean, it wouldn't cause as much strife if he were the oldest and getting away with lording it over everyone. -- Folwren __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

10-03-2006, 09:35 AM	#7
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Well, Folwren, I agree with you, but the evidence doesn't agree with me! pio, I referred to Uldor in the background as Ulfang's "youngest, most ruthless son"-could you adjust that to "eldest, most ruthless son"? Finally, Folwren, if you still want the middling we'll have to swap you and Celuien again... Oh dear. The brothers seem to be becoming interchangeable by their very nature! __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

10-03-2006, 09:38 AM	#8
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Folwren The dates of birth have to stand as they are. Since these are characters written for by Tolkien, we have to accept the background he gave them. So: From HoM-E V, The Lost Road and Other Writings, in "The Genealogies", here is what Tolkien wrote and Christopher edited: Ulfand the Swart (Ulfang the Black) - b. 100 (400 FA) Uldor (later called the Accursed) - b. 125 (425 FA) Ulfast - b. 128 (428 FA) Ulwar - b. 130 (430 FA) ----- Ulfang - 71 y/o Uldor is 46 Ulfast 43 and Ulwarth 41 As Ang says ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you want to switch to the middle-brother, Ulfast?