Tolkien's 'Smith of Wootton Major' & George MacDonald's 'Phantastes': A Comparison - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 10-03-2006, 06:05 PM

SWoM is said to be allegorical. Is that also true of Phantastes? Are there degrees of "purposed domination by the author"?

The story can be found here (thanks to Lal): Phantastes

mark12_30 · 10-12-2006, 05:33 PM

...and if you put it into .lit format using a Word plugin, then you can have the computer read it to you while you drive. Bwah ha haha.

The Microsoft Reader voice is flat and emotionless and yet the story STILL is gripping.

Using this technique, Anodos (and I) are now past the Alder woman (eeeeewwww el mucho creeepio) and into the house at the edge of the wood.

Sometimes I think the Ash tree is a rotten Ent. Only it can't be, because the Ash tree itself isn't walking; the spirit of the Ash tree is. So it's a sort of dryad? A male, eeeevil dryad.

Singing out of prison and into life. Me likey. Shades of, well, lots of things.

ps elempi, I like the new addition to your sig.

mark12_30 · 10-13-2006, 04:44 PM

Anodos in the Faery palace

.....has his own room, in which he is served by invisible hands. There is also a set of clothes laid out for him that are Just RIght for him. (Frodo wakening in Rivendell to find a set of green clothes that fitted him excellently.)

When Anodos goes swimming in the palace, he can see forms that he had not seen before.

GM does this sometimes-- Golden Key, for one. But with Tolkien, how often does this happen? I remember only Frodo, especially after Weathertop, but generally because of the Ring.

It doesn't ring a bell with Smith of Wootton Major. lmp? I've only just begun with Smith again.

Anodos in the Faery Library reading books-- Story (after Story) within a story-- doesn't happen much in Smith, does it? Happens aplenty in LOTR, although with a different flavor, mostly in song rather than in books. If we extend the metaphor that Faery Palace is akin to Rivendell, then for Frodo it's the songs rather than the books, and they have a similar effect.

Enchantment comes to Frodo through song-- echoed by Anodos' enchantment in the Faery 'bath'. I wonder whether Bolco's love of Evendim was affected by Anodos's Faery bath. Definitely by the various baths in Golden Key.

Anodos says that, while reading a story in the Faery Library, he becomes the story, and then is startled by his environment when he gets to the end of the faery-book.

Whereas Sam & Frodo realise they are IN a story, for real. Different than becoming it as you read it only to be rudely awakened at the end.

Smith is too fuzzy in my memory...

littlemanpoet · 10-13-2006, 10:22 PM

Thanks on the sig.

I see the Smith's star and Anodos' shadow as opposites in effect, though not exactly. Whereas Smith's star allows him entry, Anodos' shadow does not take away entry, but it ruins his ability to perceive Fairy.

Which makes Anodos' shadow more comparable to the Ring, especially as Frodo gets closer to Mordor. Both are meant to be undersgood as maleficent entities with their own wills. The Ring so overwhelms Frodo's perceptions that he is blinded (as if by the sun) to everything else. The shadow merely takes away Anodo's ability to see what's really there.

The palace invisibles are also comparable to the Elves passing through the Shire. In the first section of Shadows of the Past, there is a rather important exchange between Samwise Gamgee and Ted Sandyman in which Ted doubts that Elves pass through the Shire at all, and elsewhere Tolkien describes their passage (near the end of LotR) as like shadows beneath the moonbeam, or something like that. The upshot is that those whose sight is compromised by guilt (in the case of Anodos) or disbelief (in the case of Ted Sandyman), can't see what's really there.

Folwren · 10-18-2006, 11:43 AM

Interesting topic, Elempi.

I have very little to say because I read both those stories some time ago and don't remember either of them very well.

However, my opinion on this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

SWoM is said to be allegorical. Is that also true of Phantastes? Are there degrees of "purposed domination by the author"?

Pop and my older sister have both read Phantastes and both like it and I am pretty sure that they both saw some sort of allegory in it, but I have to admit that it escapes me. However, I will say that I can't imagine MacDonald writing anything without some allegorical meaning to it.

Have you read Lilith, Elempi? I think Pop and my sister liked that one even better than Phantastes.

As for me, I prefer SoWM to Phantastes, so far as I recall.

Do you think that Tolkien, as well as Lewis, learned from and used some of MacDonald's writings and teachings and lessons?

-- Folwren

Lalwendë · 10-18-2006, 01:11 PM

Meant to post this a while back, after lmp asked me what I meant in another post!

Yes, Phantastes is sometimes said to be an allegorical work about the need for the human to shrug off the carnal and accept the spiritual. However I've heard otherwise (e.g. the stories are quite Jungian), and apparently MacDonald wasn't happy with those who simply said "this book is an allegory" as he claimed it was much more complex than that. Of course, MacDonald had some individualistic ideas about God and Christ, so it would not be easy to pinpoint the allegorical elements unless you knew MacDonald's philosophies (broadly, he disliked Calvinism, and predestination). I'll have to ask davem to dig it out for me and have another look.

I don't know about SoWM being allegorical. It all seems too familiar and real to me to be allegory.

littlemanpoet · 10-20-2006, 07:01 PM

I've read Lilith. I think I like Phantastes better though. It seems that maybe I got the two stories confused, and my current rereading of Phantastes is un-confusing them. Not done, so this could take time.

I too prefer SWoM to Phantastes. I don't know exactly why. I'll have to reread SWoM after rereading Phantastes to try and take a stab at it. I think Lal's sense of reality in SWoM is what I like so much, and I do find it difficult to allow for allegory there too. Force domination of the author? I don't think so. Applications? Aplenty I'm sure.

I think that Lal is correct as to the "allegory" people write of. I've also heard of Phantastes being interpreted after Freud, which is actually possible but diminishing. I'm not sure it is quite accurate to call spiritual maturation allegory, however. Bilbo matures morally in The Hobbit but nobody calls that an allegory.

10-03-2006, 06:05 PM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	SWoM is said to be allegorical. Is that also true of Phantastes? Are there degrees of "purposed domination by the author"? The story can be found here (thanks to Lal): Phantastes Last edited by littlemanpoet; 10-03-2006 at 06:14 PM.

10-12-2006, 05:33 PM	#2
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	...and if you put it into .lit format using a Word plugin, then you can have the computer read it to you while you drive. Bwah ha haha. The Microsoft Reader voice is flat and emotionless and yet the story STILL is gripping. Using this technique, Anodos (and I) are now past the Alder woman (eeeeewwww el mucho creeepio) and into the house at the edge of the wood. Sometimes I think the Ash tree is a rotten Ent. Only it can't be, because the Ash tree itself isn't walking; the spirit of the Ash tree is. So it's a sort of dryad? A male, eeeevil dryad. Singing out of prison and into life. Me likey. Shades of, well, lots of things. ps elempi, I like the new addition to your sig. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

10-13-2006, 04:44 PM	#3
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Anodos in the Faery palace .....has his own room, in which he is served by invisible hands. There is also a set of clothes laid out for him that are Just RIght for him. (Frodo wakening in Rivendell to find a set of green clothes that fitted him excellently.) When Anodos goes swimming in the palace, he can see forms that he had not seen before. GM does this sometimes-- Golden Key, for one. But with Tolkien, how often does this happen? I remember only Frodo, especially after Weathertop, but generally because of the Ring. It doesn't ring a bell with Smith of Wootton Major. lmp? I've only just begun with Smith again. Anodos in the Faery Library reading books-- Story (after Story) within a story-- doesn't happen much in Smith, does it? Happens aplenty in LOTR, although with a different flavor, mostly in song rather than in books. If we extend the metaphor that Faery Palace is akin to Rivendell, then for Frodo it's the songs rather than the books, and they have a similar effect. Enchantment comes to Frodo through song-- echoed by Anodos' enchantment in the Faery 'bath'. I wonder whether Bolco's love of Evendim was affected by Anodos's Faery bath. Definitely by the various baths in Golden Key. Anodos says that, while reading a story in the Faery Library, he becomes the story, and then is startled by his environment when he gets to the end of the faery-book. Whereas Sam & Frodo realise they are IN a story, for real. Different than becoming it as you read it only to be rudely awakened at the end. Smith is too fuzzy in my memory... __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

10-18-2006, 01:11 PM	#6
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Meant to post this a while back, after lmp asked me what I meant in another post! Yes, Phantastes is sometimes said to be an allegorical work about the need for the human to shrug off the carnal and accept the spiritual. However I've heard otherwise (e.g. the stories are quite Jungian), and apparently MacDonald wasn't happy with those who simply said "this book is an allegory" as he claimed it was much more complex than that. Of course, MacDonald had some individualistic ideas about God and Christ, so it would not be easy to pinpoint the allegorical elements unless you knew MacDonald's philosophies (broadly, he disliked Calvinism, and predestination). I'll have to ask davem to dig it out for me and have another look. I don't know about SoWM being allegorical. It all seems too familiar and real to me to be allegory. __________________ Gordon's alive!

10-13-2006, 10:22 PM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Thanks on the sig. I see the Smith's star and Anodos' shadow as opposites in effect, though not exactly. Whereas Smith's star allows him entry, Anodos' shadow does not take away entry, but it ruins his ability to perceive Fairy. Which makes Anodos' shadow more comparable to the Ring, especially as Frodo gets closer to Mordor. Both are meant to be undersgood as maleficent entities with their own wills. The Ring so overwhelms Frodo's perceptions that he is blinded (as if by the sun) to everything else. The shadow merely takes away Anodo's ability to see what's really there. The palace invisibles are also comparable to the Elves passing through the Shire. In the first section of Shadows of the Past, there is a rather important exchange between Samwise Gamgee and Ted Sandyman in which Ted doubts that Elves pass through the Shire at all, and elsewhere Tolkien describes their passage (near the end of LotR) as like shadows beneath the moonbeam, or something like that. The upshot is that those whose sight is compromised by guilt (in the case of Anodos) or disbelief (in the case of Ted Sandyman), can't see what's really there.

10-20-2006, 07:01 PM	#7
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I've read Lilith. I think I like Phantastes better though. It seems that maybe I got the two stories confused, and my current rereading of Phantastes is un-confusing them. Not done, so this could take time. I too prefer SWoM to Phantastes. I don't know exactly why. I'll have to reread SWoM after rereading Phantastes to try and take a stab at it. I think Lal's sense of reality in SWoM is what I like so much, and I do find it difficult to allow for allegory there too. Force domination of the author? I don't think so. Applications? Aplenty I'm sure. I think that Lal is correct as to the "allegory" people write of. I've also heard of Phantastes being interpreted after Freud, which is actually possible but diminishing. I'm not sure it is quite accurate to call spiritual maturation allegory, however. Bilbo matures morally in The Hobbit but nobody calls that an allegory.