Orcs... were elves?

[Gil-Galad]

alright, i pulled the dragon-eagle one a little far, mind you my head was working on a 5 hour sleep then

[Mänwe]

Raynor;

Originally quoted by Raynor;

"from 3980 normal years to a "meager" 702 normal years] is quite significant."

Then to be pedantic they were still the "Firstborn". No?

As for the Orkor, you are right, they are a possibility. Well spotted indeed, I found a quote I believe supports the fact that they were Elves, that they were Avari.

"It was indeed their obvious detestation of the Orcs, and their willingness to
assist in any war against them, that convinced the Eldar that the Dwarves were no creatures of Morgoth. Nonetheless the Dwarvish name for Orcs, Rukhs, pl. Rakhas, seems to show affinity to the Elvish names, and was possibly ultimately derived from Avarin." - (HoME XI) [My Bold]

As for your quote from the Atrabeth, it does not ring any bells within my mind. I am afraid that the interim length has completely scrambled my brain and I cannot remember even reading the quote I thought I remembered!

In conclusion the dates we assign for the birth of Elves and Men allows I think sufficient time for their corruption and cross-breeding to form orcs. Although the short glimpse we have of the Avari does unsettle things somewhat.

I would also throw into the ring the following question.

What do we mean by the word "orc"?

For there were lesser breeds known as "snaga", "orcs" are reffered to as the more disciplined breeds from Mordor and given the name of "uruk" by Sauron.

"The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech, devised (it is said) by Sauron to serve as a lingua franca for his subjects, was probably borrowed by him from the Elvish tongues of earlier times. It referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor. Lesser breeds seem to have been called snaga." - (HoME XI)

Perhaps these more disciplined ones we can associate more with corrupted Elves.

"'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. `And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor." - (Book II, Chapter 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm)

There is a clear distinction here between "orc" and "uruk". However there is a clear similarity between them, for "some are large and evil" there are but a few differences in appearance yet they are given another name.

Let us not forget also that Saruman also bred these, they did not just originate from Mordor.

So I ask you, can we actually sign a race that has been corrupted to an "orc" or an "uruk" or a "snaga"?

[Animalmother]

Treebeard identified Merry and Pippin as orcs. As were hobbits, most orcs were subterranean creatures small of stature. As were hobbits, they originated in the Misty Mountains region. In THE HOBBIT, the orcs were fond of rough song, as were the hobbits. In the wilds of Misty Mountains where they were not under the discipline of a Saruman or Sauron. their social structure was based on small clans, as was that of the hobbits. Like hobbits, the orcs are omniverous.

The elf-origin of the hobbits theory may simply be due to the obscurity of hobbit folk. A modest folk with much to be modest about, other races didn't notice the hobbits. There was no place for them in their histories.

When the hobbits emerged into history and began to write their own history, they could never imagine fellow hobbit folk as the origin of the horrible orcs.

Elves were creatures of tree and forest. Men are creatures of the plains. Hobbits were partly subterranean creatures. It would be much easier for such a creature to transform into a completely subterranean being than it would be for an elf or a man.

[skip spence]

Animalmother!

I remember that nick, although I had to look up the previous posts to correctly place it (which also gave me a nice reminder of Morth's class).

Anyway, I like the theory, it's very imaginative, and you really should post here more often. Orcs really are a bit hobbit-like, though one wonders why the Dark Lord would pick the smallest and most insignificant of talking peoples as a breeding stock for his invading armies...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Animalmother

Treebeard identified Merry and Pippin as orcs. As were hobbits, most orcs were subterranean creatures small of stature. As were hobbits, they originated in the Misty Mountains region. In THE HOBBIT, the orcs were fond of rough song, as were the hobbits. In the wilds of Misty Mountains where they were not under the discipline of a Saruman or Sauron. their social structure was based on small clans, as was that of the hobbits. Like hobbits, the orcs are omniverous.

It is indeed an interesting idea, but I don't think it likely Orcs had their origin in Hobbits.
Dwarves also had a liking for underground dwellings, so that wasn't shared only by Orcs and Hobbits.

The largest point against the idea though, is that Sauron, who had been Morgoth's prime lieutenant from almost the first, before the Orcs ever appeared, didn't seem to know much about Hobbits.

Now Sauron had never paid heed to the "Halflings", even if he had heard of them, and he did not yet know where their land lay.

Sauron's fears were much allayed when he perceived from Gollum's account that Baggins must have been a creature of the same sort.

UT The Hunt for the Ring

And I don't have FOTR with me, but didn't Gandalf remark to Frodo that Sauron "had entirely overlooked the existence of Hobbits", or something like that?

It's really difficult for me to believe that Hobbits played a part, even an unwilling one, in the making of Orcs with Sauron displaying such ignorance of them.

[Galin]

Plus externally we don't find Tolkien considering Hobbits as Orc-stock, and he considered: Elves, Men, Elves and also (later) Men, Maiar, beasts, and noted that (internally) some thought the Druedain could have been involved. He even considered the discord of the Music! as another origin.

But this reminds me: one thing I do wonder about in the Elder Days (or Second Age) is height however, as orcs in general don't seem to be that tall. Even the huge uruk in Moria was almost man-high, with the half-orcs being generally man-high*

And by some accounts the Eldar were 6 and a half feet tall, with some kings or leaders even taller -- and by other accounts even taller, Tolkien imagining them normally about 7 feet tall (especially the Noldor), equal in general to the towering Numenoreans.

So I picture a seven foot Glorfindel or Ecthelion, for example, battling the average orc and it seems a notable disparity in height. The uruks of Mordor (and Isengard) are relatively late, just like Saruman's half-orcs -- maybe the Maiar-orcs could have been more use to JRRT, and become more (in number) than leaders of other Orcs, helping fill the ranks with larger stronger types.

Thousands of Boldogs to replace Balrogs one thousand?

Or did Orcs dwindle maybe, and at first 'regular' orcs from the First Age were taller? Or something I'm not thinking of.

__________
*I don't agree that 'man-high' in The Lord of the Rings text must necessarily equal 6 foot 4, as the term is also noted in Numenorean Linear Measures in Unfinished Tales.

[Pitchwife]

*succumbs to temptation of playing advocatus diaboli*

Originally Posted by Galin

Or did Orcs dwindle maybe, and at first 'regular' orcs from the First Age were taller? Or something I'm not thinking of.

Originally Posted by Galin a few posts later

I guess if we speculatively add Dwarves that might add yet another race! but I would rather embiggen the orcs of the Elder Days somehow, and attribute a dwindling to... well something.

Don't we know of another race that is said to have 'dwindled' in physical height? From LotR Prologue, Concerning Hobbits:

Their height is variable, ranging between two and three feet of our measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days they were taller.

Strange coincidence, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It's really difficult for me to believe that Hobbits played a part, even an unwilling one, in the making of Orcs with Sauron displaying such ignorance of them.

That would depend on how closely Sauron was involved with Morgoth's breeding project. Plus, aren't Hobbits supposed to be a race or, in modern language, sub-species of ultimately Mannish stock? Again from the Prologue:

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves.

Now we don't know around which time in history the Hobbits branched off from the Big People, but I'm inclined to think that they weren't originally that much shorter than the average Man (maybe only a foot or so?) and only 'dwindled' to halfling size over time, possibly adapting to their semi-subterranean lifestyle. So Sauron needn't necessarily have made the mental connection between the hypothetical Proto-Hobbits used in Orc-breeding far back in prehistory and the contemporary midgets of the late Third Age.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galin

(...) Or did Orcs dwindle maybe, and at first 'regular' orcs from the First Age were taller?

I stumbled across an interesting note from the 1930s -- the early-ish decade being notable here because we are still well enough away from a finished, published The Lord of the Rings (1954, 1955), in which a huge orc-chieftain (who arguably must be an uruk given a previous statement) is almost man-high -- as the list notes...

'... sometimes translated 'goblins' but they were of nearly human stature.' JRRT, 1930s wordlist, The Lost Road And Other Writings

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

One thing I do wonder about in the Elder Days (or Second Age) is height however: orcs in general don't seem to be that tall, even the huge uruk in Moria was almost man-high, with the half-orcs being generally man-high*

Ok but by some accounts the Eldar were 6 and a half feet tall, with some kings or leaders even taller -- and by other accounts even taller, Tolkien imagining them normally 7 feet tall (especially the Noldor), equal in general to the towering Numenoreans.

The first Orcs were thought by the Eldar to have been "ruined" Avari, weren't they? They, as a rule, weren't as tall as the Noldor, I don't think. Still, though, one would think elf-blood would make Orcs fairly tall. Perhaps Morgoth began with Elves, then somewhere along the way added Dwarves to the mix. Did the Orcs of the Third Age have blood of all three races, Elves, Men, and Dwarves?

[Galin]

I agree: if any Elves were the source one would think they would be 'tall enough'. I wonder why enough orcs seem fairly short in the Third Age (or am I off with this impression)?

I guess if we speculatively add Dwarves that might add yet another race! but I would rather embiggen the orcs of the Elder Days somehow, and attribute a dwindling to... well something.

I do think uruks were 'created' by breeding bigger, stronger (and possibly straighter) orcs with similar larger types, so maybe breeding could explain smaller snaga too, but who knows.

Good Tolkien discussion embiggens us all... but what about Orcs