Sorcery

[Boromir88]

I found Tolkien's words in that letter to be inconclusive by virtue of not defining his terms (which we don't expect from him seeing as it's only a letter), so I looked them up in the dictionary myself, which is my reason for equating goetia with sorcery and magia with spells.

I agree, it's tough and inconclusive...like I said, I wasn't familiar with the definition radagastly gave as being applied to Sorcery, it just seems to fit better with Necromancy...it's fully possible that I'm wrong and reading too much into everything.

I still think the Witch King was more powerful; and if Sauron had regained the possession of the Ring, the Witch King would have become much more powerful though he might not have outranked the Mouth of Sauron.

I tend to agree. Simply because we don't know about the Mouth of Sauron's capabilities, but we know what the Witch-King to do...and seeing as he was the one that commanded the army, that makes me think he was more powerful than the Mouth.

Sorry, can't be any further help with the Mouth of Sauron's age.

[Saurreg]

So we have established that there are two types of extraordinary power manipulations in Middle-earth, namely the manipulation of physical objects and the manipulation of incoporeal spirits.

But back to Mansun's question: how are such manipulations carried out? What is the way to do so? Are only maiars, the first-born and selected men (Isildur and Aragon) capable of magia and goetia. If so then why only them? Did they possess some innate ability? Did their very nature that allowed them to do so?

[Boromir88]

But back to Mansun's question: how are such manipulations carried out? What is the way to do so? Are only maiars, the first-born and selected men (Isildur and Aragon) capable of magia and goetia. If so then why only them? Did they possess some innate ability? Did their very nature that allowed them to do so?~Saurreg

With Maiar and the Elves, they just seem to possess magical capabilities naturally. It is their own innate power.

Men, it seems to be a little trickier. I don't know if Isildur has any special magical capabilities...if you are referring to the curse that he put on the Dead Army, I don't think it had anything to do with some magical ability of Isildur. Oaths are a very strong and powerful force in Middle-earth and it was more that the Dead Army were subjects of their own curse than something that Isildur did. The Men of the Mountain pledged an oath to Isildur and they went back on their oath as they fell into worshipping Sauron. Isildur just seems to serve more as an agent, as the curse was because the Men of the Mountain broke their oath made to Isildur. They weren't cursed because Isildur said they were, but because they broke an oath, and oaths have a strong binding power in Middle-earth.

Aragorn, I wonder if healing was something that he learned...we know that he lived with Elrond for a while, and he grew up with the Elves. We also know it's not just Aragorn making use of some good herbs, as he does appear to have some magical effect in combatting the Nazgul's black breath:

’Then taking two leaves, he laid them on his hands and breathed on them, and he crushed them, and straightaway a living freshness filled the room, as if the air itself awoke and tingled sparkling with joy.’~Houses of Healing

But, I wonder if he learned this from his years with the Elves, or if it was just some power and ability that he had?

[The Sixth Wizard]

Just one small thing; Pippin said at the end of the Black Gate Opens that he would almost draw equal to 'old Merry.' Obviously a hobbit's word does not count for much, but he had seen both the WK and the Mouth before he thought that.

Bye!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

If I remember correctly it was Kingsfoil (Athelas) he used, the same thing he used to bath Frodos wound. He state quite clearly that it was a plant brought from Numenor and that the Rangers was some of the only one that still knew about its healing powers. So it is not an elven tradition, they might know it as well, but I doubt that they are more skillful with it than Aragorn.

I suspect that Aragorn would have been the one that could get most out of this plant at all. It has a connection Numenor, called Kingsfoil and there is the old saying about healing from the hands of the king.

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

With Maiar and the Elves, they just seem to possess magical capabilities naturally. It is their own innate power.

I can accept that the maiar were able to control other spiritual forces because they were in essence spirits themselves. What I have in mibd is perhaps the domination of the maiar on an astro/spiritual plane over the lesser spiritual faces.

But I am not so sure of high the elves were able to manipulate flesh and matter. Perhpas that was a gift of the creator?

And speaking of the poor spirits that were used under sorcery, were did they come from. Were they lesser entities that entered the universe with the Ainur or were the created together with the world?

Oaths are a very strong and powerful force in Middle-earth .

,They weren't cursed because Isildur said they were, but because they broke an oath, and oaths have a strong binding power in Middle-earth.

Now that's something new to me. I think oaths themselves must have some sort of a bidding power as you have placed it - akin to the powers the maiar used for their bidding. Otherwise words spoken hold little substance. But by what power did oath work by? Did one have to swear upon the Gods of Arda or Illuvatar himself so as to get that deity's endorsement for an oath to work? Or was the Oath of Isildur created through whatever powers Isildur innately possessed?

[Boromir88]

But I am not so sure of high the elves were able to manipulate flesh and matter. Perhpas that was a gift of the creator?~Saurreg

I'm pretty much just guessing and making observations, nothing is conclusive or clear.

Now that's something new to me. I think oaths themselves must have some sort of a bidding power as you have placed it - akin to the powers the maiar used for their bidding. Otherwise words spoken hold little substance. But by what power did oath work by? Did one have to swear upon the Gods of Arda or Illuvatar himself so as to get that deity's endorsement for an oath to work? Or was the Oath of Isildur created through whatever powers Isildur innately possessed?

The way I thought of it was that Isildur was just an agent delivering the terms of the curse...in that sort of way.

Perhaps davem's old thread over oath-breaking might be of some more help. You mention the substance of words, and I think there is a special binding power of oaths. Which is the big reason as to why the Fellowship took no oath as far as staying with the company, they could come or go as they please. For if they were to take an oath of staying with Fellowship for so long they were bound to their words...sort of like a contract.

When Isildur curses the Men of the Mountain:

"Though shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through the years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end."~The Passing of the Grey Company

I don't know if there is any special power within Isildur that cursed the Dead Army...Isildur lays out the terms (being the one that the Men of the Mountain had pledged the oath to) as far is if they wanted to break the curse (and to break it they would have to fulfill the oath that they made). But, I've always thought that the power was in the oath, as the Dead Army had broken their oath...so they pretty much were the cause of their own curse...and Isildur comes by and lays out the terms if they want to break it.

The act of taking an oath is like a binding contract, which is why if you make one, (precisely why the Fellowship was not bound to any oath) you better be prepared to fulfill that oath, or face the consequences.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Saurreg

I think oaths themselves must have some sort of a bidding power as you have placed it - akin to the powers the maiar used for their bidding. Otherwise words spoken hold little substance. But by what power did oath work by? Did one have to swear upon the Gods of Arda or Illuvatar himself so as to get that deity's endorsement for an oath to work?

JBoromir has touched on this already, but I'd like to expand on it. Words were important to Tolkien. So important, in fact, that he was convinced that they are important to everyone whether we realize it or not. Words carry meaning, and therein have power. To speak an oath is to bind oneself to a future course of action that, due to the power of words, must come true. Swearing an oath by Iluvatar (as did Feanor and his sons) binds the oath to the power of Iluvatar. If one swears by one's own father, then the powers inherent in one's father (to beget, to thrive, to provide for family, to rule over his house), are the things which bind the oath speaker. Failure to keep an oath brings down these powers against one.

This is an example of my sig below: words and oaths still hold in the real world, though people would like to deny it. Sure, it's my opinion, but I think it's accurate.

This relates to sorcery (goetia) and spirits as well. Sorcery is the act of binding spirits by means of words and names of power. Spells (magia) are similar: words spoken cause a thing to act in a way that is against its basic nature, or speeds it up or enriches it.