Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by the phantom

So, Pip was seriously supposed to turn to Saruman and refer to himself as "this dainty"? I don't think so. When he says to Gandalf (mistaking him for Saruman) "It is not for you, Saruman!" why say "it" if he means "I'm"? If I was Saruman and Pip told me "it's not for you!" I certainly would not understand that "it" meant Pippin. That's an unclear message. A VERY unclear message. Do you think Sauron meant to send Saruman an unclear message? Nope.

And also, earlier in the Palantir conversation Sauron asked "Who are YOU" and after learning he was a halfling he said "WE shall meet again soon".

This is the most labored grammar-based argument I've seen since the last time the wings debate reared its head. Surely if Bilbo and Gollum can navigate Gollum's use of 'he', 'ye', and 'it' when referring to Bilbo, not to mention his unusual use of 'we' to refer to himself, Sauron and Saruman wouldn't be pulling a "Who's On First" routine via the palantir.

Nevertheless, Mith has an interesting point about the Mordor orcs. I'd forgotten about them. Did Sauron know that the Ring had entered Lorien? Didn't Haldir's boys wipe out the orc-band sent out of Moria after the Fellowship? This would certainly delay the news heading East, but I'm fuzzy on the timeline. More later if I have time to do some reading...

[Mithadan]

Let's try to add some flesh to the bones here by continuing with the "What did Sauron know" theme and adding "What did Sauron suspect"?

Sauron knows that the last person who definitely had the Ring was Frodo due to the escapade at the Prancing Pony and the incident at Weathertop. He knows Frodo got to Rivendell. At this point, perhaps he is concerned that Elrond will claim it. But months pass without any sign of this happening. He knows Gandalf was involved. Gandalf encountered the Nazgul on Weathertop. He learns Gandalf has left Rivendell and learns generally the composition of the Fellowship due to the events in Moria. So Elrond has not claimed the Ring and Gandalf is not touching it. A group is heading south accompanied by Gandalf. Hobbits are in the group. Sauron's reasoning probably is as follows.

Gandalf is afraid to claim the Ring and Elrond has rejected it. It is going South. To where? Gondor is the logical destination. The Ring is being concealed. A Hobbit had it. Hobbits are weak and allowing a Hobbit to bear the Ring would present the least threat to the West. So a bodyguard is provided for the Hobbit to assist him in bringing the Ring to Gondor.

The Orc raid on Amon Hen specifically targets Hobbits. If Sauron only wanted intelligence it would suffice to capture any member of the Fellowship, not just Hobbits. If he wanted a Hobbit just to "play" with, he could have gotten one from The Shire. Grishnakh knows about the Ring. Sauron clearly thinks the Ring has remained with Frodo. So when a Hobbit is apparently captured by Saruman and (to Sauron's mind) intentionally revealed to him through the Palantir the only logical conclusion is that Sauron believed Saruman had captured the Ring.

[Mister Underhill]

The orc-raid on Amon Hen was launched primarily by Saruman, though, no? I don't think you can assume that Saruman shared his intel with Sauron; on the contrary in this case. I'm thinking the Mordor orcs were vectored towards the Fellowship by the Nazgûl who Legolas shot down near the river. What's the word on the osanwé link between Sauron and his Nazgûl minions? Would he know what they know (or suspect) as soon as they know it, or do they have to be "within range"?

All this may be bunk. It begs the question of how a raiding party composed of Uruks, Moria, and Mordor orcs came to be formed.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Fordie, who makes some interesting points.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Interesting indeed....

Mith, your summary of what Sauron could or would reasonably know is compelling but I think there is a crucial point you are missing, and that is Sauron would easily have recognised that Pippin is not Frodo and therefore not the Ringbearer.

Remember, the Witch King stabbed Frodo at Weathertop when Frodo was wearing the Ring, and given the rather, shall we say, close relationship between the Nazgul and Sauron we can safely assume that the good, close-up look they got of Frodo there would have been transmitted to Sauron. It's also more than likely that they saw the other three hobbits as well (if not quite so well) and passed along those descriptions to him.

So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he would have known instantly that this particular hobbit is not the Ringbearer, thus Saruman has got the wrong hobbit -- hence the laugh perhaps? ("Stupid Sarumman! Wrong Halfling!") It is possible, I suppose, that Sauron would think that the Ring had been given to Pippin, but I find that hard to believe...I mean, if anyone is going to know how hard it would be for someone to give up the Ring it's going to be the Dark Lord. And besides, from his point of view, why bother getting Frodo to give up the Ring to another hobbit? One Halfling is pretty much the same as another (to him) and if the Ring is going to be given to someone else it would probably be (to Sauron's way of thinking) a person of Power who could use it against him.

I also find it hard to believe that Sauron could not instantly tell the difference between someone who had borne (and even worn) the Ring and someone who had not. The Ring has a terrible and marked presence and leaves its effect on any who take it, and Sauron would have to be able to see that. Gollum, having worn the Ring, feels the call of Sauron and goes to Mordor, and when he's captured he's not summarily killed but taken to Sauron and questioned by the Big Boss himself. Why would Sauron bother with such a pathetic thing if he wasn't able to see at a glance that Gollum was the product of his own Ring?

So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he sees not the Ringbearer, neither does he feel the effect nor the presence of the Ring. It might be that at this point he thinks that perhaps Saruman has more than one Halfling and that Frodo has been taken, but that's really speculating now -- and if this is the case, why would he not say "these dainties" or "they"? Unless, of course, "dainty" and "it" refer to the Ring, which -- as I say -- I don't think they do (for all of the above reasons).

I also don't see Sauron referring to his Ring as a "dainty" anything....

[the phantom]

You use good logic Fordim, but I'm not sure I'm willing to believe the whole concept of Sauron recognizing a Ring-bearer and being able to tell different hobbits apart.

In person, absolutely, you're right. But through the palantir....

Remember, at first Sauron thought he was talking to Saruman. That should be an obvious clue that Sauron couldn't tell a fellow Ring-bearer. I mean, he couldn't tell the difference between Saruman and Pippin!

I think the fact that the palantir was involved changes the situation.

This is the most labored grammar-based argument I've seen since the last time the the wings debate reared its head.

Well, thank you.

[Mister Underhill]

At your service!

[Mithadan]

I was actually going to bring up the very point that Sir Underhill did, poking a little hole in my own argument for the sake of debate. The room for interpretation is one of the things that make Tolkien's work so compelling. Underhill is quite right. We don't know which group of Orcs had orders to seize Hobbits and run. Presumably, Saruman and Sauron both knew the Ring entered Lorien. Both groups of Orcs were lying in wait. The Mordor Orcs on the east side of Anduin (remember them shooting arrows at the Fellowship as they passed?) and the Moria and Saruman Orcs on the west bank. Sauron's orders may have been "kill them all and bring the bodies home", we don't know.

This is a matter of readers' impressions. My impression was pretty much always been that Sauron thought Saruman had the Ring. Others' impressions differ. Absent an express statement on the issue, we can't know. If Tolkien had used a capital "I" in "it" we might know for certain. This isn't determinative. He might have missed or simply not used a capital "I" or an over-zealous editor might have changed it. Has anyone peeked at HoME on this issue? I don't have those volumes with me and really don't have the time to research.

[the phantom]

Think what you will about how much Sauron could see, Fordy, but it is a fact that Sauron's powers/abilities are lesser when using the palantir.

In letter 246 Tolkien says that Aragorn could not have withheld the Ring from Sauron if face to face, and continues on to explain how he was able to "win" the palantir contest despite that.

In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.

Sauron wasn't the rightful owner, so he couldn't wield the palantir perfectly. And on top of that his powers, which would include powers of perception, were greatly dimmed by distance.

I think you should've just stuck with the phone analogy you were using at first. Do you think Sauron could've told the voices of Pippin and Frodo apart on the phone having never heard them before? And really, do you think he could've picked their faces out of a lineup? In person, yes, but just from a photo where there is no physical presence involved? I doubt it. The Nazgul weren't equipped with digital cameras as far as I know.

[Boromir88]

Ai! Ai! So tangling and messy.

I think Sauron only sent one Nazgul because that Nazgul was the closest one. Sure, he could've gathered them all together and sent them in force, but why wait? His precious, his key to absolute victory, was within his grasp! Send for it immediately!~tp

That still really doesn't make sense. Sauron may not have feared Saruman by using the ring mono-a-mono against him, but he definitely saw a weakness if somebody (especially somebody of significant power) got a hold of the Ring:

If that happened, the new possesor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done sine the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.~Letter 131

Unless Sauron was brainless, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't think Sauron would have sent all his forces to Isengard, since he had other things to deal with (Gondor, Lorien, Mirkwood, Erebor...etc) but it was definitely clear Sauron had an overwhelming mass of forces at his disposal. Had the Ring not been destroyed, just the sheer numbers and force of Sauron's armies would have crushed those who opposed him.

Sauron had many armies at his disposal...and again taking into account that the Nine could not get the job done at getting the Ring when they had the chance. If Sauron believed that Saruman had the ring (somebody who had some power), I think it would be more important to him and getting that Ring than just sending one Nazgul.

There are two possibilities I think in only sending one Nazgul...

1) As Mithadan said, perhaps Sauron still felt like he had Saruman controlled and a faithful obedient servant. (However, as Grishnakh shows, Sauron had already begun to grow distrustful of Saruman...so I don't know if this would make sense).

2) He wanted the Hobbit to get as much information from him as possible, which wouldn't require all that much to get. Considering that if Isengard was still standing, Saruman would have soon come to realize this was the wrong hobbit, there wouldn't be much need of him, and probably would willlingly give him up to Sauron. (This is also though just a bunch of possibilities and speculation).

With the questions over the palantir. The palantiri could not be made to lie by anybody. So, they were definitely accurate and reliable sources of information. What Denethor saw in the palantir wasn't lies by Sauron, they were actually taking place...But since Denethor did not have the mind, or will, to contend with Sauron, Sauron was able to control and show Denethor only what he wanted Denethor to see:

’He was too great to be subdued by the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which the power permitted him to see. The knowledge which he obtained was, doubtless often of service to him; yet the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind."~The Pyre of Denethor

In this encounter with Sauron and Pippin, I would no doubt expect that Sauron saw everything he wanted.

1) Pippin wasn't a rightful owner of the palantir, yet Denethor was of his:

These stones were an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs, to whom alone they belonged by right; but this does not mean that they could only be used rightfully by one of these 'heirs'. They could be used lawfully by anyone authorized by either the 'heir of Anarion' or the 'heir of Isildur', that is, a lawful King of Gondor or Arnor. [...] In Gondor latterly, as the office of Steward rose in importance and became hereditary, providing as it were a permanent 'understudy' to the King, and an immediate viceroy at need, the command and use of the Stones seems mainly to have been in the hands of the Stewards, and the traditions concerning their nature and use to have been guarded and transmitted in their House. Since the Stewardship had become hereditary from 1998 onwards, so the authority to use, or again to depute the use, of the Stones, was lawfully transmitted in their line, and belonged therefore fully to Denethor. ~Unfinished Tales; The Palantiri

Denethor was also a rightful viewer of the Stone (though he was much closer in proximity to Sauron than was Aragorn or Pippin)...however as we see he was unable to wrestle any sort of control over what Sauron showed him.

2) Denethor, Saruman, and Aragorn were much stronger as far as willpower than Pippin was:

"...nor had he [Sauron] any servant whose mental powers were superior to Saruman's or even Denethor's."~ibid

Therefor, I think it's highly possible, that Sauron saw exactly who Pippin was and how he looked. It certainly appears that Sauron won the exchange, as Pippin is in a complete state of shock and fear after he looked into it.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Remember, at first Sauron thought he was talking to Saruman.

Yeah but he did then see that it was a Hobbit. (And when you pick up the phone you always know exactly who is on the other end of the line I suppose... And when your call display tells you that someone is calling you from your mother's phone, you pick it up and say "To whom am I speaking?" instead of "Hi Mom!") At which point -- knowing, as he does, that a Hobbit (Frodo) is bearing the Ring -- which do you think is the most likely thing to go through Sauron's mind:

1) "Hmmmm, a hobbit. I can't quite make out which one it may be. Perhaps its the Ringbearer. Perhaps it isn't. Oh well, never mind about that now, I'll send a Nazgul to fetch it and look into this later."

or

2) "Hey, a hobbit? Is it the Ringbearing one or not? Hmmmmmm....a bit taller than the one Witchie told me about....not quite so red in the cheeks....younger than Baggins.....no sign of the Ring on his finger or around his neck.....no sense of Ringiness here......nope, it's not Frodo Baggins. But he sure looks like a dainty fellow who could give me some good intel!"

Now I imagine someone is going to argue that the Palantir is somehow not a reliable source of information -- that it was impossible for Sauron to see clearly enough that he could differentiate between Pippin and Frodo. Tosh! In the other instances we have recorded of its use, it was a reliable source of information -- the only time it seems to obscure is when Sauron perverts or dominates it (like with Denethor).