Coffee! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-27-2006, 01:41 PM

This was one of the first threads I ever lurked on....perhaps the very first. It was waaaaay back in the day when I had a different screenname even! Reading through and posting on Kuru's interesting thread on possible trade between Dwarves and Elves in the First Age reminded me of it.

I love coffee, and I love Tolkien-related conundrums so it seemed time to resurrect this thread and to pose the question anew to a fresh generation of Downers:

1) Did the hobbits really have coffee, as we understand it (as opposed to some other form of drink which the narrator has simply called "coffee"), and if so

2) Where the heck did they get it?

For me, it makes most sense that they would have traded with the Dwarves for it, and that the Dwarves obtained it in trade with Men from the south...but this is where it gets tricky: Gondor was not southerly enough to grow coffee, so either the men of Gondor were trading with the Southrons in some way, or the Dwarves were trading with the Southrons....

And while we're at it: what about tea and sugar? Also crops that only grow in the tropics, so where the heck did that come from?

Lalwendë · 10-28-2006, 12:54 AM

There's not that much mystery to it really. Coffee doesn't have to be made from arabica, it can be made from all kinds of stuff, including chicory, which would in fact have been extremely common in Tolkien's day - its only lately with fancy city types wanting fresh-ground-hand-made £200 a cup coffee that us Brits have got all 'sophisticated' about the brown stuff. Maybe Tolkien would even have Camp Coffee (we all remember that stuff is we're over a certain age). If it wasn't made with chicory it could be brewed with acrons and other nuts.

Sugar? Sugar beet. Grows everywhere.

Tea? Dunno about that growing in different climes. But again tea does not have to be made from the usual leaf. However here, I think Tolkien as a Brit would have sniffed at the very thought of namby-pamby 'herbal teas'.

And the tobacco thing was cleared up because the plant even grows in the arctic and you can easily grow your own (and legally too) in an English garden.

Bêthberry · 10-28-2006, 07:58 AM

You know, I tried to find this thread just the other day, but for some reason I kept thinking it was started by Maril rather than BW and forgot the name. Great thread!

Fordim, I've always felt the Grey Havens was under represented in the LotR story. I mean, why maintain an important sailing harbour, manned by one of the oldest and wisest of elves, if it is going to be used only for one-way, one-time only, excursion trips to the West?

My bet would be that there was substantial trading going on via the Grey Havens, accessible to dwarves from the Blue Mountains and Hobbits and run by elves. The Bay of Belfalas offers several ports which fed into Gondor. I bet we could even imagine some kind of pirate RPG game out of this.

Pirates of the Haradrium.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-28-2006, 05:39 PM

Lal m'dear,

Quote:

There's not that much mystery to it really. Coffee doesn't have to be made from arabica, it can be made from all kinds of stuff, including chicory, which would in fact have been extremely common in Tolkien's day

So called replacement "coffees" were only invented in WWII when the real thing became scarce -- so when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit in the 30s, coffee meant, well, coffee.

Quote:

Sugar? Sugar beet. Grows everywhere.

Sorry again luv, but sugar beets weren't actually used for sugar until 1838 when the first commercial sugar beet mill was opened in the US. Sugar from beets wasn't even imported to the UK until much later. This means that the hobbits either had technology well beyond everyone else in Middle-Earth (including the steam engine, compressors capable of creating a vacuum, and boilers) or they were using sugar from a sugar cane, which is tropical. (What's more, sugar beets were a better source of sugar than other root veggies, but not hugely so -- they were hybridized and cultivated in later 18th Century to gain a higher sucrose level...got to love Wikipedia).

Quote:

Tea? Dunno about that growing in different climes. But again tea does not have to be made from the usual leaf. However here, I think Tolkien as a Brit would have sniffed at the very thought of namby-pamby 'herbal teas'.

I think for Tolkien and hobbits alike, "herbal tea" is an oxymoron. So is anyone who drinks it.

Quote:

And the tobacco thing was cleared up because the plant even grows in the arctic and you can easily grow your own (and legally too) in an English garden.

And who said anything about tobacco? My theory is that this is what the hobbits traded in return for coffee, tea and sugar.

Beebs: you're on!

Folwren · 10-28-2006, 05:46 PM

I have no comments, just wanted to pop in and say how relieved I am to see this thread. I didn't know if coffee was actually in M-E and without thinking about it, I stuck it into the Golden Perch thread. Only after I had placed the post did I wonder, "Wait a moment...was there even coffee there? And would the Hobbits have had it?"

At least I know now that there was coffee in ME...at least, from the little I've read on this thread, some people think here is...but I'm still not possitive about the hobbit question.

-- Folwren

Lalwendë · 10-29-2006, 07:12 AM

Ah, but Fordim, there's no time frame to consider in relation to the Real World. If there is, then which one are we going to go for? Medieval? Dark Ages? Tudor? Tolkien jumbles up elements from all periods of history (even post-industrial) to create Middle-earth, so there need be no restrictions on whether certain produce had been 'discovered' or 'developed'. They also had umbrellas, waistcoats and pipes, none of which were around before at least the Tudor period.

The only consideration regarding foodstuffs is whether certain crops would grow in certain climes.

I mean, they also have potatoes and tomatoes in Middle-earth but there's certainly no America in Tolkien's creation. Now if there were levitating potatoes or maybe dancing coffee beans this would be a problem, but the time-frame of 'discoveries' in our world aren't that important, especially when discussing Hobbits and The Shire.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 10-30-2006, 08:23 AM

Indeed so. It seems to me that this is what Tolkien meant when he said that Middle-earth is our world at "...at a different stage of imagination", rather than an earlier stage in its history. In an historical novel coffee would be a ridiculous and unforgivable anachronism, and one which Tolkien could have avoided easily. As it is, it exists in a deliberately anomalous society, which owes most of its more anachronistic features to the device used in The Hobbit of pitting an Edwardian country gentleman against figures of legend. I think that's one of the most overlooked themes in Tolkien: that in his first novel, modern values and approaches save situations that would become disasters if left to the mythic heroic code of conduct. This approach only works because the Shire is a place in which coffee, tomatoes and potatoes, not to mention mechanical clocks and pipe-smoking, can exist.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-30-2006, 10:26 AM

True.

But with the advent of LotR and its much more consciously historically 'realistic' approach to events (that is, it is supposed to 'seem' real and reasonable at every turn) isn't that stance more difficult to maintain? The meticulous attention to detail in the creation (subcreation) of this secondary world means that it all MUST make sense (to Tolkien's way of thinking).

So the Barrow Wight's excellent question still stands: where did the coffee come from? Because even though there is no mention of coffee in LotR, the Shire still exists unchanged from The Hobbit with all of its clocks and umbrellas. Those sorts of manufactured goods are relatively easy to work out -- hobbits and Dwarves are clever and able to make these things. But coffee, sugar and tea can only be made from crops not found in the climate Tolkien describes for the Shire.

Given the assumption left us by the work itself -- that it is internally realistic, logical and subject to the same physical laws as we find in our own world -- and in the absence of any explanation by the author/narrator, what theories can we come up with for the source of these exotic goods.

Saying simply "that's the way he wrote it" is such a cop out. I certainly wouldn't accept that answer to a question like, say, "Why did Gollum fall into the Crack of Doom?" or "Why wasn't Boromir able to resist the Ring?" Why would the very fabric of M-E's physical reality be any less worthy of investigation than the moral questions?

10-27-2006, 01:41 PM	#1
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	This was one of the first threads I ever lurked on....perhaps the very first. It was waaaaay back in the day when I had a different screenname even! Reading through and posting on Kuru's interesting thread on possible trade between Dwarves and Elves in the First Age reminded me of it. I love coffee, and I love Tolkien-related conundrums so it seemed time to resurrect this thread and to pose the question anew to a fresh generation of Downers: 1) Did the hobbits really have coffee, as we understand it (as opposed to some other form of drink which the narrator has simply called "coffee"), and if so 2) Where the heck did they get it? For me, it makes most sense that they would have traded with the Dwarves for it, and that the Dwarves obtained it in trade with Men from the south...but this is where it gets tricky: Gondor was not southerly enough to grow coffee, so either the men of Gondor were trading with the Southrons in some way, or the Dwarves were trading with the Southrons.... And while we're at it: what about tea and sugar? Also crops that only grow in the tropics, so where the heck did that come from? __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

10-28-2006, 12:54 AM	#2
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	There's not that much mystery to it really. Coffee doesn't have to be made from arabica, it can be made from all kinds of stuff, including chicory, which would in fact have been extremely common in Tolkien's day - its only lately with fancy city types wanting fresh-ground-hand-made £200 a cup coffee that us Brits have got all 'sophisticated' about the brown stuff. Maybe Tolkien would even have Camp Coffee (we all remember that stuff is we're over a certain age). If it wasn't made with chicory it could be brewed with acrons and other nuts. Sugar? Sugar beet. Grows everywhere. Tea? Dunno about that growing in different climes. But again tea does not have to be made from the usual leaf. However here, I think Tolkien as a Brit would have sniffed at the very thought of namby-pamby 'herbal teas'. And the tobacco thing was cleared up because the plant even grows in the arctic and you can easily grow your own (and legally too) in an English garden. __________________ Gordon's alive!

10-28-2006, 07:58 AM	#3
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	You know, I tried to find this thread just the other day, but for some reason I kept thinking it was started by Maril rather than BW and forgot the name. Great thread! Fordim, I've always felt the Grey Havens was under represented in the LotR story. I mean, why maintain an important sailing harbour, manned by one of the oldest and wisest of elves, if it is going to be used only for one-way, one-time only, excursion trips to the West? My bet would be that there was substantial trading going on via the Grey Havens, accessible to dwarves from the Blue Mountains and Hobbits and run by elves. The Bay of Belfalas offers several ports which fed into Gondor. I bet we could even imagine some kind of pirate RPG game out of this. Pirates of the Haradrium. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

10-28-2006, 05:46 PM	#5
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	I have no comments, just wanted to pop in and say how relieved I am to see this thread. I didn't know if coffee was actually in M-E and without thinking about it, I stuck it into the Golden Perch thread. Only after I had placed the post did I wonder, "Wait a moment...was there even coffee there? And would the Hobbits have had it?" At least I know now that there was coffee in ME...at least, from the little I've read on this thread, some people think here is...but I'm still not possitive about the hobbit question. -- Folwren __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

10-29-2006, 07:12 AM	#6
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Ah, but Fordim, there's no time frame to consider in relation to the Real World. If there is, then which one are we going to go for? Medieval? Dark Ages? Tudor? Tolkien jumbles up elements from all periods of history (even post-industrial) to create Middle-earth, so there need be no restrictions on whether certain produce had been 'discovered' or 'developed'. They also had umbrellas, waistcoats and pipes, none of which were around before at least the Tudor period. The only consideration regarding foodstuffs is whether certain crops would grow in certain climes. I mean, they also have potatoes and tomatoes in Middle-earth but there's certainly no America in Tolkien's creation. Now if there were levitating potatoes or maybe dancing coffee beans this would be a problem, but the time-frame of 'discoveries' in our world aren't that important, especially when discussing Hobbits and The Shire. __________________ Gordon's alive!

10-30-2006, 08:23 AM	#7
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Anachronisms of central importance? Indeed so. It seems to me that this is what Tolkien meant when he said that Middle-earth is our world at "...at a different stage of imagination", rather than an earlier stage in its history. In an historical novel coffee would be a ridiculous and unforgivable anachronism, and one which Tolkien could have avoided easily. As it is, it exists in a deliberately anomalous society, which owes most of its more anachronistic features to the device used in The Hobbit of pitting an Edwardian country gentleman against figures of legend. I think that's one of the most overlooked themes in Tolkien: that in his first novel, modern values and approaches save situations that would become disasters if left to the mythic heroic code of conduct. This approach only works because the Shire is a place in which coffee, tomatoes and potatoes, not to mention mechanical clocks and pipe-smoking, can exist. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

10-30-2006, 10:26 AM	#8
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	True. But with the advent of LotR and its much more consciously historically 'realistic' approach to events (that is, it is supposed to 'seem' real and reasonable at every turn) isn't that stance more difficult to maintain? The meticulous attention to detail in the creation (subcreation) of this secondary world means that it all MUST make sense (to Tolkien's way of thinking). So the Barrow Wight's excellent question still stands: where did the coffee come from? Because even though there is no mention of coffee in LotR, the Shire still exists unchanged from The Hobbit with all of its clocks and umbrellas. Those sorts of manufactured goods are relatively easy to work out -- hobbits and Dwarves are clever and able to make these things. But coffee, sugar and tea can only be made from crops not found in the climate Tolkien describes for the Shire. Given the assumption left us by the work itself -- that it is internally realistic, logical and subject to the same physical laws as we find in our own world -- and in the absence of any explanation by the author/narrator, what theories can we come up with for the source of these exotic goods. Saying simply "that's the way he wrote it" is such a cop out. I certainly wouldn't accept that answer to a question like, say, "Why did Gollum fall into the Crack of Doom?" or "Why wasn't Boromir able to resist the Ring?" Why would the very fabric of M-E's physical reality be any less worthy of investigation than the moral questions? __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.