oldest person in middle earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mormegil · 10-27-2006, 06:10 PM

I think it is Cirdan the Shipwight.

narfforc · 10-28-2006, 12:07 AM

Mormegil is correct, Cirdan took part in the westward journey of the Elves, and was amongst those who searched longest for Elwe. Finarfin being the son of Finwe was born in the Blessed Realm along with his own daughter Galadriel, somewhat later.

Bêthberry · 10-28-2006, 08:15 AM

Right, best to keep it to elves, as factoring in Treebeard and Bombadil raises that other thorny question.

I don't think anyone has ever asked how old Goldberry is. Since she has some power to control the weather, one would think she is belongs to the earlier characters who shaped Arda, although obviously her mother would be older than her. No time travelling confusions here!

mormegil · 10-28-2006, 11:16 AM

How old is Glorfindel?

Laleena · 10-28-2006, 12:34 PM

Glorfindel, I read somewhere, was reincarnated. He died in the wars of Gondolin.
So he must be older than the wars of Gondolin. (don't ask me to do the math, I'm not good at it

)

Laleena · 10-28-2006, 12:57 PM

Hang on let me go prod my best friend, she knows

Legolasfan1 · 10-28-2006, 12:59 PM

okay im here (stop prodding it hurts

) I just signed up,which im sure you can see.

Hey, Leena, I don't know exactly how old Glorfindel is. I know just about as much as you.

yavanna II · 11-30-2006, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mormegil

I think it is Cirdan the Shipwight.

I can't quote, since I don't have a book (it's probably just under my bed or something), but Cirdan has a beard and has very long and white(?) hair. And for Elves to have beards they have to be thousands of years old, right?

Boromir88 · 11-30-2006, 10:46 AM

Yep, Yavanna, Cirdan does have a beard:

Quote:

'Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars...'~The Grey Havens

Those elves that entered into the third (which I believe is the last) life cycle had beards. This would mean that the eldest of the Eldar had beards. On Middle-earth (of the Elves we are told about), I honestly think it's pretty clear Cirdan was the oldest. As Cirdan was one of the first elves to arrive in Middle-earth and he would be the last one to leave:

Quote:

Some he [Osse] persuaded to remain; and those were the Falathrim, of Brithombar and Eglarest, the first mariners in Middle-earth and the first makers of ships. Cirdan the Shipwright was their lord.~Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie

Quote:

'But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by my grey shores until the last ship sails.'~Appendix B: Tale of Years

Mithalwen · 11-30-2006, 12:00 PM

Just because a Mrs Cirdan isn't mentioned doesn't mean she definitely didn't exist though. Mrs Thranduil isn't mentioned but she must have existed. Since Tolkien says that marriage early in life was the norm for elves, there celarly wasn't the imbalance in the genders as occurred with dwarves - though if you look at the extant elvish geanealogies you would think that the gender imbalance was even greater among elves than the dwarves ..... alas for the unwritten history of women ....

As for kinship - the Valar were unborn yet were still regarded as having siblings who were coeval in spirit. It is not impossible that a similar attitude was taken with the first elves...

Bêthberry · 11-30-2006, 12:52 PM

Just as Yavanna and Manwe had a special relationship separate from Yavanna's relationship with Aule, perhaps Mrs. Cirdan and Celeborn had one also, which would explain her absence from The Grey Havens at the fateful time of the famous departure. I don't think there's any question, though, that a Mrs. Cirdan sported a beard.

Frankly, I sometimes wonder if those blue wizards who went east weren't clothed in female robes. Another reason why their story is untold.

Boromir88 · 11-30-2006, 01:33 PM

Oi, but Bethberry, the Blue Wizards story is told a bit more extensively and Tolkien seems to believe they had played a bit importance in limitting the numbers of Sauron's armies. I think we have more on the Blue Wizards than we do on Radagast. So if any wizard dressed in female clothes, it would be him.

Bêthberry · 11-30-2006, 02:51 PM

Oh but Boromir, it isn't surprising that a man of Tolkien's tastes and values would be so circumspect and discrete about what likely were his Mata Hari characters.

10-27-2006, 06:10 PM	#1
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	I think it is Cirdan the Shipwight. __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

10-28-2006, 12:07 AM	#2
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Mormegil is correct, Cirdan took part in the westward journey of the Elves, and was amongst those who searched longest for Elwe. Finarfin being the son of Finwe was born in the Blessed Realm along with his own daughter Galadriel, somewhat later. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

10-28-2006, 08:15 AM	#3
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Right, best to keep it to elves, as factoring in Treebeard and Bombadil raises that other thorny question. I don't think anyone has ever asked how old Goldberry is. Since she has some power to control the weather, one would think she is belongs to the earlier characters who shaped Arda, although obviously her mother would be older than her. No time travelling confusions here! __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

10-28-2006, 11:16 AM	#4
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	How old is Glorfindel? __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

10-28-2006, 12:34 PM	#5
Laleena Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in Mirkwood riding my horse Posts: 27	Glorfindel, I read somewhere, was reincarnated. He died in the wars of Gondolin. So he must be older than the wars of Gondolin. (don't ask me to do the math, I'm not good at it ) __________________ Sarcasm isn't the lowest form of wit, it isn't wit at all.~ Halt

10-28-2006, 12:57 PM	#6
Laleena Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in Mirkwood riding my horse Posts: 27	Hang on let me go prod my best friend, she knows __________________ Sarcasm isn't the lowest form of wit, it isn't wit at all.~ Halt

10-28-2006, 12:59 PM	#7
Legolasfan1 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in Rivendell riding on my horse and shooting arrows Posts: 11	okay im here (stop prodding it hurts ) I just signed up,which im sure you can see. Hey, Leena, I don't know exactly how old Glorfindel is. I know just about as much as you.

11-30-2006, 12:00 PM	#10
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Just because a Mrs Cirdan isn't mentioned doesn't mean she definitely didn't exist though. Mrs Thranduil isn't mentioned but she must have existed. Since Tolkien says that marriage early in life was the norm for elves, there celarly wasn't the imbalance in the genders as occurred with dwarves - though if you look at the extant elvish geanealogies you would think that the gender imbalance was even greater among elves than the dwarves ..... alas for the unwritten history of women .... As for kinship - the Valar were unborn yet were still regarded as having siblings who were coeval in spirit. It is not impossible that a similar attitude was taken with the first elves... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

11-30-2006, 12:52 PM	#11
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Just as Yavanna and Manwe had a special relationship separate from Yavanna's relationship with Aule, perhaps Mrs. Cirdan and Celeborn had one also, which would explain her absence from The Grey Havens at the fateful time of the famous departure. I don't think there's any question, though, that a Mrs. Cirdan sported a beard. Frankly, I sometimes wonder if those blue wizards who went east weren't clothed in female robes. Another reason why their story is untold. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

11-30-2006, 01:33 PM	#12
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Oi, but Bethberry, the Blue Wizards story is told a bit more extensively and Tolkien seems to believe they had played a bit importance in limitting the numbers of Sauron's armies. I think we have more on the Blue Wizards than we do on Radagast. So if any wizard dressed in female clothes, it would be him. __________________ Fenris Penguin

11-30-2006, 02:51 PM	#13
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Oh but Boromir, it isn't surprising that a man of Tolkien's tastes and values would be so circumspect and discrete about what likely were his Mata Hari characters. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.