Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Mister Underhill]

Time, tide, and BD discussion threads wait for no man. I haven't been able to read or compose in detail as I'd like, but I thought I'd throw out at least a few thoughts.

It seems to me at least that Gandalf presumes that Sauron was thinking of Pippin when he spoke of "this dainty":

Originally Posted by Gandalf

If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger.

"He wanted you."

The dark mind which had been seeking his lost Ring literally for centuries would now be filled with the "voice and face of the hobbit", rather than the Ring, if he thought that was what he was sending for?

And lastly, mention is made of "the captive", but not the Ring.

Make of those what you will. To my mind, Gandalf did not jump to the conclusion that Sauron thought Saruman had captured the Ring.

Even a cursory glance at "The Hunt for the Ring" from UT (with the usual caveat that the text is unfinished, and indeed exists in several varying forms -- but what the heck, we're using UT as authoritative on how the Palantíri function) shows that Sauron by no means considered Saruman loyal at this late date, no matter which version you examine.

I have some ideas on what this implies for who knew what when, and what some of the dynamics might have been, but they will have to wait for a later date, I'm afraid.

One interesting thing of note is that my impression on a quick skim is that Uruks and Northerners from Moria attacked the Fellowship at Amon Hen; Grishnákh may or may not have been with them at that time, or may have caught up with them afterward; either way, I think he's the sole Mordor rep at first. After he stirs up the pot and it goes against the Northerners, I think Grishnákh slinks off, and only returns later with a band of Mordor orcs -- just in time to get rounded up and slaughtered by the Rohirrim. In other words, the group that attacked the Fellowship may not have been a Mordor/Isengard coalition force.

Last quick point. Going back to "The Hunt for the Ring":

Originally Posted by UT

"Sauron's fears were much allayed when he perceived from Gollum's account that Baggins must have been a creature of the same sort."

You don't think twice about calling a creature from a species of furry-footed little creatures an "it", especially if you're the most egotistical being walking Middle-earth.

[The Saucepan Man]

From the excerpt quoted by Mister Underhill above:

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error. (emphasis added)

What is this error that Gandalf considers Sauron may take some time discovering? Surely it is his mistake in assuming that Pippin was the Ringebearer.

It is not at all inconsistent with Sauron assuming that Pippin was the Ringbearer that he would want to question the captive Pippin. Even with the Ring regained, he was still at war with the Free Peoples. He would want as much information concerning his enemy as possible, particularly when the captive was a known associate of Gandalf and had visited Rivendell and (possibly, although this, I think, remains unclear) Lothlorien.

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

You don't think twice about calling a creature from a species of furry-footed little creatures an "it", especially if you're the most egotistical being walking Middle-earth.

Agreed. Except when you are addressing said furry-footed little creature and directing it to convey a very important message concerning itself to another. In those circumstances, Sauron would not say to the creature: "tell him to send it to me", but rather: "tell him to send you to me".

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Sorry Sauce, but I think that Mister Underhill has carried the day here.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim

Sorry Sauce, but I think that Mister Underhill has carried the day here.

Now you know that there is no more effective way of drawing me back out than saying something like that ...

If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

It has been suggested that Sauron was quite aware that Pippin was not the Ringbearer but nevertheless wanted him brought to Barad-Dur because he wanted information from him.

But Gandalf says that Sauron did not want information only.

So why did Sauron want him, if not only for information? And why did he want him so quickly? Simply to indulge in a little bit of torture? Perhaps, but I don't see any reason for the excessive eagerness or the urgency if that was the case. Why the excitement over the prospect of torturing an unimportant creature of a race that he had barely heard of and attached no significance to other than in connection with the Ring?

No, Sauron wanted Pippin brought quickly to Barad-Dur because he believed Pippin to be the Ringbearer (thus enabling him to obtain the Ring) and because he wanted to "deal" with the Ringbearer, slowly. The fact that Pippin would no doubt have information that would be useful to him was another reason for dealing with him personally, but it was the prospect of torturing the Ringbearer (and, of course, retrieving the Ring) that prompted the urgency and eagerness.

I can understand Sauron getting excited at the prospect of "dealing" with a creature who was (illegitimately, to his mind) in possession of the most precious thing in the world to him rather more than I can understand him getting excited at the prospect of "dealing" with a mere Hobbit with some useful information.

[Mister Underhill]

It's quite clear that Sauron wanted Pippin brought quickly because he had a craving for a nice, tasty dainty. These are difficult to be had in Mordor, as everyone knows, and when he clapped eyes on Pippin, he just couldn't wait. He hung up quickly so he could go order the manufacture of some whipped cream (in Mordor it really is "whipped"). That's one theory, anyway.

Take a look at things from Sauron's point of view.

You know that Saruman is not a loyal ally.

You know, in fact, that Saruman is in a race with you to find the Ring.

Saruman has not been answering his phone. In fact you've sent a Nazgûl across the River sooner than you wanted to in order to find out why.

You likely know that an attack on the Fellowship was made, not by your forces, and perhaps you know that the attackers were attempting to return to Isengard.

Now, your phone rings. It's Saruman. At this point, the only reason you can think of for him to be calling is that he has decided to make peace with you, so you answer the phone, "So, you have come back?"

But now you see that it's not Saruman after all. It's one of those furry-footed little creatures who have had the temerity to steal your Ring (Precious!!).

Saruman must be showing it to you. Why?

Perhaps he has discovered the Ring and is showing you this creature to demonstrate that (a) he has it and (b) he wants to give it back to you. Nix. If Saruman had found the Ring, he would have taken it.

Perhaps he has discovered the Ring and is showing you this creature to taunt you, to rub your face in it that he has found the Ring, and has no intention of giving it to you. Not likely. Saruman is not a complete fool. Even if he never said the words from UT, the logic behind them is pretty persuasive:

Originally Posted by Saruman

"...if I knew where [the Ring] was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it."

Perhaps, by attacking the Fellowship, he made his last ditch play to get the Ring for himself. Now, having failed, he sees the writing on the wall. The Ring is beyond his grasp. War is imminent, and you will win. Thus, he is showing you this prisoner as a peace offering. You could question the prisoner here and now, but it may say something aloud that you don't want Saruman to hear. And anyway, torture over the phone just doesn't compare with torture in person. Just in case Saruman has any ideas about questioning the prisoner himself, as he planned to do with Gandalf, you issue him a warning. Then you hang up so you can get NPS (Nazgûl Parcel Service) dispatched.

You don't ask to speak directly to Saruman just to make him sweat a bit about whether or not you will accept his peace offering.

That's my take.

[The Saucepan Man]

Effectively, we have a difference of opinion over Sauron’s thought process here. The alternatives may be summarised as follows:

1. Saruman has been looking for the Ring.
2. Saruman has captured a Hobbit.
3. A Hobbit was bearing the Ring.
4. Ergo Saruman has both Hobbit and Ring.
5. I am delighted at this turn of events.
6. Both Hobbit and Ring must be handed over to me immediately.
7. Have Nazgul in vicinity, will send it straight away.

or

1. Saruman was looking for the Ring.
2. Saruman has captured a Hobbit.
3. A Hobbit was bearing the Ring.
4. This Hobbit doesn’t have the Ring.
5. I am delighted at this turn of events.
6. Hobbit must be handed over to me immediately.
7. Have Nazgul in vicinity, will send it straight away.

Both involve an assumption on Sauron’s part – the italicised words at point 4. in both formulations. Neither assumption necessarily follows as a matter of logic from the first three points. However, it seems to me that, in all the circumstances, the assumption in the first formulation is the one that Sauron was the more likely to make. It is also more consistent with the points that follow.

Add to this the words that Sauron spoke to Pippin and the more natural conclusion to draw from his use of the word “it” (repeated by Pippin to Gandalf), and I have no doubt that Sauron thought that Saruman had captured the Ringbearer.

Did Sauron stop to consider the likelihood of Saruman “calling him up” in these circumstances? Possibly. Possibly not. If he did, my guess is that he thought that Saruman was prepared to hand the Ring over to him in return for favour, rather than risk having Sauron’s full force unleashed upon him. Sauron was an over-confident fellow who regarded himself and his capabilities highly and assumed that others would do so too. Alternatively, he may have thought that the captive Hobbit had been left alone by Saruman with the Palantir and had made a desperate attempt to call for help.

Although we are here in the realm of pure speculation, there are to my mind perfectly credible explanations for Sauron not thinking it overly strange that he should receive this call.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

You are right there Sauce about the reliance on assumption that you and Misty Undy are engaging in -- which is why I forsake such things and cite once more the passage provided by MU above:

"If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger."

To Gandalf's mind the situation is pretty clear: Sauron wants and is referring to Pippin as the thing to be sent to Mordor; and there is no mention anywhere here of the Ring. Gandalf says that Sauron wants "information", "you", "you" and that he is consumed with "the voice and face of the hobbit" and that he'll be angry that Saruman has withheld "the captive".

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try...