Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Boromir88]

My last post was in no way intended to be taken seriously...hence the use of the smiley.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Professor Hedgethistle

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try...

I wouldn't dream of it. Although Gandalf is not infallible ...

Nevertheless, Gandalf's words are not incompatible at all with my understanding. I refer the learned professor to my post #32. Sauron did not want information only. He wanted the Hobbit. Urgently, and with great anticipation. Why? Because he thought that the Hobbit had the Ring.

Perhaps those asserting the contrary case would care to explain why, if he did not believe the Hobbit to have the Ring, Sauron would become so obsessed with the Hobbit (such that his dark mind would become filled with his voice and face), why he awaited the Hobbit with such expectation and what exactly the error was that Gandalf was referring to.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Perhaps those asserting the contrary case would care to explain why, if he did not believe the Hobbit to have the Ring, Sauron would become so obsessed with the Hobbit

Because he knows that the Hobbit (with the Ring) was travelling with three other Hobbits who probably have a good idea of where their friend is at (with said Ring).

why he awaited the Hobbit with such expectation

To extract certain information (see above) and, well, he enjoys tormenting innocents.

and what exactly the error was that Gandalf was referring to.

That Sauron thought Pippin was, and I quote "captive" in Isengard and not riding free with Gandalf with Isengard in smoking ruins behind them.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim

Because he knows that the Hobbit (with the Ring) was travelling with three other Hobbits who probably have a good idea of where their friend is at (with said Ring).

Originally Posted by Fordim

To extract certain information (see above) ...

But, as Gandalf states, he did not only want information. Regardless of the Hobbit's information value, he wanted the Hobbit. He was obsessed with the Hobbit. Why?

Originally Posted by Fordim

... and, well, he enjoys tormenting innocents.

I don't doubt that he does. But he was particularly excited about the prospect of entertaining this particular Hobbit at Barad-Dur. Why?

Originally Posted by Fordim

That Sauron thought Pippin was, and I quote "captive" in Isengard and not riding free with Gandalf with Isengard in smoking ruins behind them.

Well, it's not going to take him long to clear up that particular misunderstanding. A Nazgul was en route to Isengard even as Gandalf was speaking. Yet Gandalf says that it may be some time before Sauron learns of his error. What error could that be?

[Raynor]

Yet Gandalf says that it may be some time before Sauron learns of his error. What error could that be?

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.

[the phantom]

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.

Ah, but SPM's point was that the error Gandalf spoke of would take some time to clear up, where as the error you are speaking of (believing the palantir and the hobbit were at Isengard) is a quickly corrected error. That makes me think that the error that would take some time to clear up is Sauron's mistaken belief that the Ring itself was at Isengard, had been at Isengard, or was at least with those who had been at Isengard.

EDIT: Btw, I just thought I'd mention that every bit of speculation we do based on Gandalf's words is guess work at best. Gandalf did not know everything. He has been very wrong before, and has a habit of stating things as fact that were not truly known.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ah, but SPM's point was that the error Gandalf spoke of would take some time to clear up, where as the error you are speaking of (believing the palantir and the hobbit were at Isengard) is a quickly corrected error. That makes me think that the error that would take some time to clear up is Sauron's mistaken belief that the Ring itself was at Isengard, had been at Isengard, or was at least with those who had been at Isengard.

I don't think that it would take longer for Sauron understand that the ring wasn't in Isengard than understanding that Pippin & the palantir weren't there. After all, as the quote says, "Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone". That is a firm belief. All that he knows at that time leads him to this conclusion. However, that the ring is with that hobbit is only a presuposition - he hasn't seen the ring, but he has seen the hobbit in Saruman's palantir.

[Mister Underhill]

The Nazgûl en route (the one that passed over Dol Baran) was not sent as a result of Pippin looking into the stone, as G tells Pippin himself, and G is fairly explicit about the "error":

'But it was not coming for me, was it?' faltered Pippin. 'I mean, it didn't know that I had… '

'Of course not,' said Gandalf. 'It is two hundred leagues or more in straight flight from Barad-dûr to Orthanc, and even a Nazgûl would take a few hours to fly between them. But Saruman certainly looked in the Stone since the orc-raid, and more of his secret thought, I do not doubt, has been read than he intended. A messenger has been sent to find out what he is doing. And after what has happened tonight another will come, I think, and swiftly. So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger. For Isengard may be ruined, yet he is still safe in Orthanc. So whether he will or no, he will appear a rebel.

As a sidebar, more evidence that calling a hobbit an "it" is not at all unusual or unprecedented may be found in the dialogue of Shagrat and Gorbag regarding Frodo:

'Lugbúrz wants it, eh? What is it, d'you think? Elvish it looked to me, but undersized. What's the danger in a thing like that?'

EDIT: Cross-posted with Raynor.

[Boromir88]

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.~Raynor

But why would the error be about the palantir when there is no mention of the crystal ball throughout the quote Mr. Underhill supplied?

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

The error has to do with Pippin, nothing at all with the palantir. Gandalf thinks Sauron has made an error with Pippin. Sauron's mind is filled with Pippin's voice and image, and this is where Sauron has erred (according to Gandalf). This whole matter is about Pippin, not Sauron thinking Saruman still had the palantir, he cares about getting Pippin. So what is this error that Gandalf thinks Sauron has made and it will take him a while to recognize it?

Well, I think we can say it's safe to assume that Sauron wouldn't want Pippin to simply for the pleasure of torturing a little hobbit and mounting him in his room (ehem: Fordim). Sauron may have taken pleasure in making people work for him, but he's got thousands of Orcs to do this, and I doubt he's going to send one of his Nazgul to Isengard to go fetch him a toy to play with. Isn't there bunnies or leprecauns around or something?

Also, according to Gandalf, Pippin wasn't only wanted for information (so there would have to be at least two reasons Sauron hoped to acquire when receiving Pippin). So going to get Pippin either Sauron wanted:

1. Information and a fun hobbit to play with
2. Information and the Ring
(Or I guess you could say)
3. Information, the Ring, and a hobbit to play with.

Now why would Gandalf feel that Sauron made an error in choosing Pippin to be tortured? It just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Sauron is now filled with the mind and voice of the Hobbit, and Gandalf says this is where Sauron has made his error. I really don't see Gandalf saying Sauron made an error in his choice of who he wanted to torture...maybe Gandalf thought Pippin wouldn't be all that fun to torture, and plus Pippin's was his to torture? Therefor, I see it has to be an item that Sauron believed Pippin had (or Saruman had already taken from him), and hoped to get when he got Pippin.

One might think why doesn't Sauron just say...The Ring is not for you, Saruman! Why doesn't he just say that...instead of being all coded and saying 'it' all the time? I think that's just it, Sauron wants to disguise his intentions, eventhough if they really are quite obvious...or at least obvious enough that it appears Gandalf picked up on what Sauron wanted from Pippin. Not just information, but something else. What else could Sauron want from a Hobbit beside the Ring or a slave/torture person? However, it really doesn't make a lot of sense that Sauron wanted Pippin so bad, because there was a lack of a labor force, or a lack of people to torture, in Mordor that he needed to get this Hobbit right away, and he needed a Nazgul to go get this Hobbit as soon as possible.

[Mister Underhill]

You might have read over the quote a little too quickly, Boro -- "...withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone."

[Boromir88]

Mister Underhill, so I did speak a little hastily. But I don't think the error with Pippin has anything to do with the Palantir. With this whole mess Sauron has assumed several things wrong:

Pippin's a captive in Orthanc
Saruman had the Stone in Orthanc
Pippin is someone that would be important to Sauron. And not just for information.

I think the gloss you put on your last quote is a little out of context, let's look at the bigger picture:

'I was just wondering about the black shadow. I heard you shout "messenger of Mordor". What was it? What could it do at Isengard?'
'It was a Black Rider on wigs, a Nazgul,' said Gandalf. 'It could have taken you away to the Dark Tower.'
'But it was not coming for me, was it?' faltered Pippin. 'I mean it didn't know that I had...'
'Of course not,' said Gandalf. 'It is two hundred leagues or more in straight flight from Barad-dûr to Orthanc, and even a Nazgûl would take a few hours to fly between them. But Saruman certainly looked in the Stone since the orc-raid, and more of his secret thought, I do not doubt, has been read than he intended. A messenger has been sent to find out what he is doing. And after what has happened tonight another will come, I think, and swiftly. So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger. For Isengard may be ruined, yet he is still safe in Orthanc. So whether he will or no, he will appear a rebel. '

I get the impression there are two Nazgul heading to Isengard. The first one was sent before Pippin looked into the palantir, because Sauron wanted to find out what Saruman has been doing all this time and why he hadn't been using the stone. But after the events of tonight [Pippin looking into the stone] Gandalf thinks another will be sent to Isengard, and be sent swiftly. This would be the Black Rider Pippin would have to be fear, because this would be the one after the captive (him). The other one Gandalf guesses was sent to Isengard to figure out what Saruman was up to all this time, not the one sent after Pippin used the Palantir.

I think as phantom says there are many errors Sauron had made here. One was assuming Saruman still had the palantir, and I think as he says this can be easily rectified, especially with the quote above. However, there were other errors Sauron made and it would take him longer to figure it out...this might be assuming Pippin was the Hobbit with the Ring.

As I did speak hastily there was an error that Sauron thought Saruman had the palantir, however there was another error Sauron made and it dealt with Pippin, this is stated with the sentence talking about Sauron's mind being filled with Pippin's image and voice. Why would Sauron be so concerned about what Pippin looks like and how he talks if he wanted Pippin for sport? No, he's concerned about how Pippin looks and how he speaks because he has something Sauron wants...the most important thing Sauron wants (and not just information).

While it is true that hobbit can be dehumanized, as you have shown Mr. Underhill, I don't think that happens in this case, because structurally it doesn't make sense. Sauron says 'We shall meet again.' We is kind of like an in-group in sociology, there is a sense of equalization. Although Sauron and Pippin may not be equal in many areas, they are both people, and even Sauron recognizes this with 'We' (meaning You and I). So, now that Sauron has already set them up as equals on a certain level, why would he suddenly change to 'it?' There is a subject change between this encounter. It goes from 'We' to 'it' a person to a thing. It is just a confusing structure to make the argument that Sauron was making Pippin feel like he wasn't a person, because he had done that very thing.

In the examples you give, the word 'it' is used consistantly to refer to people, as in making them appear like they are less than human.

(At the rist of repeating myself through out this post, everything above is Gandalf's speculation).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Phantom you said:

I just thought I'd mention that every bit of speculation we do based on Gandalf's words is guess work at best.

Boro you said:

everything above is Gandalf's speculation

Ok, sure. But then isn't this...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

there was an error that Sauron thought Saruman had the palantir, however there was another error Sauron made and it dealt with Pippin, this is stated with the sentence talking about Sauron's mind being filled with Pippin's image and voice. Why would Sauron be so concerned about what Pippin looks like and how he talks if he wanted Pippin for sport? No, he's concerned about how Pippin looks and how he speaks because he has something Sauron wants...the most important thing Sauron wants (and not just information).

...and this...

Originally Posted by The Phantom

I think Sauron thought Saruman had captured the Ring bearer! Why else get excited and send a Nazgul? Would Saruman go to the Shire and kidnap Lobelia and show her to Sauron? Nope. What's the point? There's only one reason for Saruman to show off a hobbit to Sauron- to say "I've got the Ring!"

...not to mention this...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Did Sauron stop to consider the likelihood of Saruman “calling him up” in these circumstances? Possibly. Possibly not. If he did, my guess is that he thought that Saruman was prepared to hand the Ring over to him in return for favour, rather than risk having Sauron’s full force unleashed upon him. Sauron was an over-confident fellow who regarded himself and his capabilities highly and assumed that others would do so too. Alternatively, he may have thought that the captive Hobbit had been left alone by Saruman with the Palantir and had made a desperate attempt to call for help.

...also speculation?

Can someone please explain to me why speculating about what Gandalf said is somehow less compelling or convincing than speculating about what Sauron thought?