Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim

Because he knows that the Hobbit (with the Ring) was travelling with three other Hobbits who probably have a good idea of where their friend is at (with said Ring).

Originally Posted by Fordim

To extract certain information (see above) ...

But, as Gandalf states, he did not only want information. Regardless of the Hobbit's information value, he wanted the Hobbit. He was obsessed with the Hobbit. Why?

Originally Posted by Fordim

... and, well, he enjoys tormenting innocents.

I don't doubt that he does. But he was particularly excited about the prospect of entertaining this particular Hobbit at Barad-Dur. Why?

Originally Posted by Fordim

That Sauron thought Pippin was, and I quote "captive" in Isengard and not riding free with Gandalf with Isengard in smoking ruins behind them.

Well, it's not going to take him long to clear up that particular misunderstanding. A Nazgul was en route to Isengard even as Gandalf was speaking. Yet Gandalf says that it may be some time before Sauron learns of his error. What error could that be?

[Raynor]

Yet Gandalf says that it may be some time before Sauron learns of his error. What error could that be?

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.

[the phantom]

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.

Ah, but SPM's point was that the error Gandalf spoke of would take some time to clear up, where as the error you are speaking of (believing the palantir and the hobbit were at Isengard) is a quickly corrected error. That makes me think that the error that would take some time to clear up is Sauron's mistaken belief that the Ring itself was at Isengard, had been at Isengard, or was at least with those who had been at Isengard.

EDIT: Btw, I just thought I'd mention that every bit of speculation we do based on Gandalf's words is guess work at best. Gandalf did not know everything. He has been very wrong before, and has a habit of stating things as fact that were not truly known.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ah, but SPM's point was that the error Gandalf spoke of would take some time to clear up, where as the error you are speaking of (believing the palantir and the hobbit were at Isengard) is a quickly corrected error. That makes me think that the error that would take some time to clear up is Sauron's mistaken belief that the Ring itself was at Isengard, had been at Isengard, or was at least with those who had been at Isengard.

I don't think that it would take longer for Sauron understand that the ring wasn't in Isengard than understanding that Pippin & the palantir weren't there. After all, as the quote says, "Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone". That is a firm belief. All that he knows at that time leads him to this conclusion. However, that the ring is with that hobbit is only a presuposition - he hasn't seen the ring, but he has seen the hobbit in Saruman's palantir.

[Mister Underhill]

The Nazgûl en route (the one that passed over Dol Baran) was not sent as a result of Pippin looking into the stone, as G tells Pippin himself, and G is fairly explicit about the "error":

'But it was not coming for me, was it?' faltered Pippin. 'I mean, it didn't know that I had… '

'Of course not,' said Gandalf. 'It is two hundred leagues or more in straight flight from Barad-dûr to Orthanc, and even a Nazgûl would take a few hours to fly between them. But Saruman certainly looked in the Stone since the orc-raid, and more of his secret thought, I do not doubt, has been read than he intended. A messenger has been sent to find out what he is doing. And after what has happened tonight another will come, I think, and swiftly. So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger. For Isengard may be ruined, yet he is still safe in Orthanc. So whether he will or no, he will appear a rebel.

As a sidebar, more evidence that calling a hobbit an "it" is not at all unusual or unprecedented may be found in the dialogue of Shagrat and Gorbag regarding Frodo:

'Lugbúrz wants it, eh? What is it, d'you think? Elvish it looked to me, but undersized. What's the danger in a thing like that?'

EDIT: Cross-posted with Raynor.