Saruman for or against Sauron?

[Farael]

Now, I would not want to ruin this spectacular debate with a bit of speculation (and no irony there, you guys are interesting to read) but are we forgetting one little detail?

Kuruharan you state that Sauron's armies would defeat the Ringlord's but... when Samwise a hobbit, and not the greatest one at that, was clutching the ring, Snaga (I believe it was him the orc who was running down the stairs) saw him as a huge, threatening figure. How would the other minions of Sauron see a more powerful ringlord actively using the ring?

I don't know about being able to gather enough troops for this difference to be meaningful, but if the ringlord had enough time to build up a strong enough army, and possibly choose the terrain where the fight would take place (after all, waiting only benefits the new ringlord, thus odds are Sauron would not wait for too long before launching his attack) it is possible that his army would have defeated Sauron's.

Now, in this scenario there is the issue of what would happen if Sauron himself decided to show up for the party. That'd be an interesting scenario, as I'm sure Sauron's minions fear him twice as much as they'd fear the ringlord... what would happen then?

I do not know, but the way I interpret Tolkien's comment is that, in a one-on-one battle, Sauron would win against all save perhaps Gandalf. At the same time, the characters in the book are talking about another scenario, what would happen if a strong-enough ringlord decided to battle his armies against Sauron's?

And keep in mind that none of the characters talk about certainty... so perhaps it is possible for them to defeat Sauron's armies, and effectively usurp Sauron's place (although sooner or later Sauron would arise again since the ring was still both existant and "unmastered")* but only Gandalf could defeat Sauron himself.

*Taking into account the previous comment that mastering the ring would be to break the link between it and Sauron, something only Gandalf could have done. This is unlike wielding, which would be using it without achieving mastery.
Just my cent and a half (short of two cents)

[Kuruharan]

when Samwise a hobbit, and not the greatest one at that, was clutching the ring, Snaga (I believe it was him the orc who was running down the stairs) saw him as a huge, threatening figure. How would the other minions of Sauron see a more powerful ringlord actively using the ring?

A very good point, and it also had its effect on Shagrat who was probably about as strong-willed as an orc could be, although Shagrat still held onto his purpose in that encounter. I think the effect on orcs (and indeed on lots of people) would have been even more intense for somebody who was actively trying to claim and use the Ring. I think that is part of the reason why Sauron would try to force a personal encounter quickly. However, I think Sauron would probably have a similar effect on those in his presence and in any case the new Ringlord could only be in once place at a time and I think the overpowering dread the Ring would inspire would be a...well, for lack of a better way of phrasing it a limited area-of-effect spell. It could dominate its immediate vicinity but this particular effect would not dominate the field.

As far as what would happen on the field, questions about terrain etc. are unanswerable unless one wanted to construct scenarios that would obviously be non-canonical in the extreme (even though it would probably be interesting). However, it must be remembered that Sauron was far from strategically incompetent, as his performance showed. He was defeated at the Pelennor Fields because the enemy achieved a tactical and strategic masterstroke in simultaneously robbing him of his reinforcements and getting in the rear of his army. This would cause the defeat of almost any army.

In the battle with the new Ringlord I think that Sauron and the new Ringlord would have been using their respective armies for two different purposes. The new Ringlord would have used his/her army to try and defeat Sauron. Sauron would have used his army to try and pin down the enemy so he could go take back what was his. Two different purposes, but put both of them together and it favors Sauron getting what he wanted.

[Raynor]

A personal confrontation between Sauron and the new ringlord is what I have been talking about the whole time. In the battle between Sauron and the ringlord the armies would engage and play tremendous havoc with each other. In the confusion, Sauron would storm up to the pretender and personally settle matters with them.

I have never challenged the idea that Sauron would win in a direct single battle against anyone but Gandalf, although you keep returning to this; the meaning of my argument was that the ringlord would avoid, as I quoted from the letters, contemplating such a direct fight. I guess we will also have to agree to disagree that Sauron would be involved in a direct battle, out of several reasons: it seems to be the way things are in Arda that the greatest of leaders are not involved in direct battle (as Tolkien says in Myths Transformed: "the Government is always in Whitehall"); Melkor feared for his body, I think we can safely assume Sauron did too; IIRC, there was a single time when Sauron is mentioned to have engaged in direct combat, and he lost - I believe he learned the lesson; at the last battle, in front of the gates of Mordor, it is implied in LotR that Sauron believed the ringlord was present, but he did not come himself to fight.

There is another element that might be interesting to this discussion:

Originally Posted by Letter #131

Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.

I think it all comes down to the interpretation of what "challenge" mean. If it means direct confrontation, then it is probably down only to Gandalf; however, I think that challenge can be taken in a more general meaning; if that is the case, it appears that simple possession of the ring can provide, in itself, that which is required to overthrow Sauron.

Was Saruman aware that the fellowship may consider detroying the Ring, given that Gandalf had refused him the chance of using it? If Gandalf would not wield it, then what may Saruman expect them to do with the Ring? Just take it somewhere for safe keeping? He may have thought the same as Sauron, that the Ring Bearer was on his wasy to Minas Tirith. But who then had the strength & power to wield it there? Denethor?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

He may have thought the same as Sauron, that the Ring Bearer was on his wasy to Minas Tirith. But who then had the strength & power to wield it there? Denethor?

As Gandalf said:

Originally Posted by The last debate

For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strength enough to wield it. That too he knows. For do I not guess rightly, Aragorn, that you have shown yourself to him in the Stone of Orthanc?

Therefore, Aragorn would be at least one additional choice. The others are a matter of speculation.

Originally Posted by Raynor

As Gandalf said:

Therefore, Aragorn would be at least one additional choice. The others are a matter of speculation.

Debatable still. Aragorn does not have the great power of Gandalf, even if he has a strong will. Denethor would have been a more realistic thought in the mind of the enemy, given that he was the Lord of Minas Tirith at the time of the war.

The point I was making was the fact that Saruman may have thought the Fellowship were upto something else, since they had refused to wield the Ring in the past. Saruman new the minds of the Wise better than many, unlike Sauron.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Aragorn does not have the great power of Gandalf, even if he has a strong will.

True, but that didn't seem to matter much to Gandalf in the quote above.

Denethor would have been a more realistic thought in the mind of the enemy, given that he was the Lord of Minas Tirith at the time of the war.

However, he was much weakened and affected by his contest with Sauron. I expect that Saruman would find out about that one way or the other - spies, rumors, Sauron himself, the palantir.