Why take a body? Why make a Ring?

[Raynor]

At the time of the making of the Girdle of Doriath, Melian told Thingol that she foresaw the coming of Beren, and he would be more powerful than her magic, since a higher doom drives him. Now, unless Eru revealed to Melian these things only after she met Thingol, she must have known all along about Beren and his doom, her girdle, and, most likely, her presence and role in Middle Earth near Thingol.

Originally Posted by Lal

Those who take on 'elemental' forms seem to become personifications of those elements - e.g. Varda as the stars

I don't think that Varda is described as 'elemental', since, as stated in the Valaquenta:

Originally Posted by Of the Valar

Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Iluvatar lives still in her face.

Concerning the issue of interaction/influence, I would say that even semantically they are almost similar; or, to be more exact, influence is a particular case of interaction. So far, we know of no limitation of the valar and maiar in their incarnate form; the opposite is, actually, true.

[Lalwendë]

I also find a problem in how Sauron got the Ring from Numenor. The answer to it could also lie in the nature of the Ring of course. But we do see one Maia without physical form and that's Saruman, and from the description of what happens to him, it wouldn't seem possible that he could interact with the physical world - after all, surely if he could, then wouldn't he have smote the Hobbits or somesuch? Instead he immediately appeals to the Valar and is rejected. Though perhaps this explains why they send the wind to dissipate him?

Now, there is another possibility as to why Sauron (and indeed Melkor) would want to take on a physical form. The possession of a Hroa actually provides some degree of 'protection', an additional barrier of Unwill to prevent the mind from being perceived. And if you have dark deeds in mind, then you do not want them to be revealed.

And yet more ideas... Of course Melkor and Sauron wanted to interact with the Elves, and then with Men and other mortals. Possession of a Hroa would instantly make this easier as a tangible person would be more readily accepted than a spirit. That's just simple psychology, and note also that both our Dark Lords also take on a 'fair' form at first, instantly attractive and appealing. There is also the issue of language, a pertinent one considering the central importance of language to our author. Incarnates have become users of language as habit instead of using sanwe, though Tolkien makes it clear they still have this ability, in some it lies latent and in others they do use it a little even when using language. Is it possible that it was essential to have a Hroa in order to use language?

[Raynor]

Though perhaps this explains why they send the wind to dissipate him?

How do you interpret dissipate in this case?

after all, surely if he could, then wouldn't he have smote the Hobbits or somesuch?

We know from Myths Transformed that when Melkor was executed:

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii, HoME X

When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were.

I would say that a similar situation occured with Saruman, who was far less powerful than Melkor, and thus even more severely (and for a longer term) weakened by the loss of his hroa.

Is it possible that it was essential to have a Hroa in order to use language?

It depends on what sort of language; Tolkien differentiates between lambe and tengwesta. Lambe, language, has the same root as lamba, which is the phisical tongue, a relation which rose "from elementary observation of the important part played by the tongue in articulate speaking, and from noticing the peculiarities of individuals, and the soon-developing minor differences in the language of groups and clans", cf. Appendix D, Quendi an Eldar, HoME XI. The eldar also used tengwesta, "a system or code of signs": a lambe is a tengwesta built of sounds. As such, it is most likely that thought transmission used some sort of tengwesta; the root "ten" means to point at, and it is free from any limitation to the kind of signs used.

The possession of a Hroa actually provides some degree of 'protection', an additional barrier of Unwill to prevent the mind from being perceived.

While a hroa does hinder thought transmission, I don't think that, in fact, it serves as a protection, seeing that a hroa weakens a maia's (or vala's) abilities, in which I would include the strength of the unwill - although you may be right. I am thinking of Saruman who let some of his secrets slip to Sauron, while looking in the palantir.

[Lalwendë]

Raynor, I like your interpretation of what happened to Saruman, not least as I rather like Saruman (even if he was a bad guy!), so I don't like to think he was quite literally blown to the four winds. However, I doubt he could have been 'destroyed' by the Valar; even were it possible I don't think it would have been permissible. I think he was simply trying to seek his way back 'home' to the Undying Lands and they refused him admittance, so he was left to seek his way in Middle-earth. Hmm, wonder if this is why he too made himself a 'ring of power'? To help re-house himself? Could make a good story...

Anyway. I was under the impression from Osanwe-kenta that sanwe was an inherent ability and did not need the use of any form of recognisable language, and that language only grew up as people found they did not need to use sanwe through proximity. Language does seem to be restricted to Elves and mortals (and to those they taught language to), so I get the feeling it is not something the Ainur were accustomed to using - there's the example of the 'debate' between Gandalf and Saruman at Orthanc which the listeners are 'shut out' of; are they reverting to the usual mode of communication of the Maiar here?

[Raynor]

Hmm, wonder if this is why he too made himself a 'ring of power'? To help re-house himself?

I don't think that his power, and therefore the power he could have poured into the ring, was anywhere close to Sauron's, so as to allow him to rehouse himself; and it is mentioned in the LotR preface that he still had missing links in his ring-lore. I believe that he, like Sauron, never contemplated his death, and therefore had no planned backups.

I doubt he could have been 'destroyed' by the Valar

Perhaps you skipped my post #23

Originally Posted by Letter #211

The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.

I was under the impression from Osanwe-kenta that sanwe was an inherent ability and did not need the use of any form of recognisable language, and that language only grew up as people found they did not need to use sanwe through proximity.

Hm.. I don't know. I know of no referrence about children using thought transmission - they would need will and also have what to transmit. If they haven't been already properly taught about notions and all, I guess they could only transmit, in extreme circumstances, only basic feelings. Though you may be right.

I get the feeling it is not something the Ainur were accustomed to using

I wouldn't say so; in Quendi and Eldar, it is said that Lambe Valarinwe, the language of the valar, is mentioned in the old lore of the early days of the eldar in Aman. Furthermore, in the comentary on chapter 3, Of the coming of the elves, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X, it is stated that Orome "'taught [the elves] the language of the gods, from whence afterwards they made the fair Elvish speech". More specifically, in Quendi and Eldar, it is stated that:

Originally Posted by Notes on "The language of the valar", HoME XI

In such [bodily] forms [the valar] would take on all the characters of the Incarnates that were due to the co-operation of hroa with indwelling fea, for otherwise the assumption of these forms would have been needless, and they arrayed themselves in this manner long before they had any cause to appear before us visibly. Since, then, the making of a lambe is the chief character of an Incarnate, the Valar, having arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves.

Edit:
Some more notes I made on the issue of indestructibility of the fea:

Originally Posted by Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

The fea is indestructible, a unique identity which cannot be disintegrated or absorbed into any other identity.

Originally Posted by Myths Transformed

...no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing

Originally Posted by Later Quenta Silmarillion

...the fea cannot be broken or disintegrated by any violence from without

[littlemanpoet]

Raynor, are you actually Christopher Tolkien?

You are an amazing source of Tolkien lore, sir. Thanks for all of your clarifications.

Lal, I like your basic psychology that Melkor and Sauron chose fair forms in order to manipulate Elves and Men.

What seems to be pulling together is that a Vala is quite powerful and free before taking a Hroa, has limits (of course) while "wearing" that Hroa, and should the Vala in question become evil, and loose the Hroa through death, becomes far weaker than with the Hroa. Conversely, a Vala who (like Gandalf) does a self-sacrificial act of good, if the Hroa dies, may revert to whatever state Eru deems most useful to Eru's purpose.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I wouldn't say so; in Quendi and Eldar, it is said that Lambe Valarinwe, the language of the valar, is mentioned in the old lore of the early days of the eldar in Aman. Furthermore, in the comentary on chapter 3, Of the coming of the elves, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X, it is stated that Orome "'taught [the elves] the language of the gods, from whence afterwards they made the fair Elvish speech".

Just had another look in osanwe-kenta and pulled out the following bits:

This refers to how the use of language has seen a decline in the use of/need for/ability to use sanwe:

tengwesta has also become an impediment [to sanwe. my words]. It is in Incarnates clearer and more precise than their direct reception of thought.

The following refers to Melkor's interest in language, but also hints that it is an inherent skill in Incarnates, not one taught by the Valar:

from the first he was greatly interested in language, that talent that the Eruhini would have by nature;

The following again seems to hint that language is an Incarnate skill, not one of the Ainur's natural abilities. It also suggests that having taken on a hroa and begun to use language, their own inherent skills of sanwe would decline in some small degree. Wouldn't you then, as one of the Ainur, be particularly keen to hang on to that hroa?

The Hroa and tengwesta have inevitably some like effect on the Valar, if they assume bodily raiment. the hroa will to some degree dim in force and precision the sending of the thought...If they have acquired the habit of tengwesta, as some may who have acquired the custom of being arrayed, then this will reduce the practice of osanwe. Bt these effects are far less than in the case of the Incarnate.

This refers again to what the Ainur preferred to use, and how language for some was a 'choice':

...the use of tengwesta or lambe has never become imperative, and only with some has it become a custom and preference.

And then to the nub of what I'm trying to get at. Melkor it seems decided or realised that sanwe would not always work as there was the distinct possibility of people using unwill and closing off their mind, and he really wanted to get at the minds of the good people. So he decided to pursue the use of language, and to use language, you need a body!

Therefore he sought means to circumvent the unat and unwill. And this weapon he found in language. For we speak now of the Eruhini whom he most desired to subjugate...their language, though it comes from the spirit or mind, operates through and with the body;

So, there's my idea. The Ainur, like Melkor and Sauron, wanted a hroa, a body, so that they could use language?