Tolkien's 'Smith of Wootton Major' & George MacDonald's 'Phantastes': A Comparison

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

I had often thought that MacDonald's mother/ grandmother figures represent the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2, Proverbs 8...) and that's why they are so "pervasive"-- not just in Phantastes, but in just about every work of MacDonald's. "The Back of the North Wind", for instance.

I could accept that if the the depictions weren't so physically female. Please don't misunderstand: I think that of the trinity, the Holy Spirit is the most obviously feminine, but that's different.... somehow....

I forgot to add last time that I find the ending to Phantastes to be deeply dissatisfying. I had better go back and read it again to remember why, but SOWM ends in a very satisfying manner. It has been said to me that the reason Phantastes ends so dissatisfyingly was because MacDonald had not resolved some of the personal/spiritual issues he was working on while he was writing the work.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I forgot to add last time that I find the ending to Phantastes to be deeply dissatisfying.

Seems to me that Anodos ended the story alive, and that was why the story is unsatisfying-- especially after having read "I was dead, and right content." Death is MacDonald's satisfaction; everything points that way. Anything else and we are bound to be dissatisfied.

Death is a consummation in MacDonald's worldview; the doorway, the portal, the threshold. THis life isn't meant to be satisfying. Hence, approaching the threshold and turning back, or being turned back, is dissatisfying. I don;t want earthly life when I'm finishing the story; I want the Beatific Vision. And in not getting it, I'm probably as frustrated as Anodos was in waking up and realizing he was still mortal.


Regarding the grandmotherly/ motherly figures: I'm not saying that they ARE the Holy Spirit. But they strongly represent him. I can happily call it "applicability". Their maternal-ness isn't upsetting to me at all, since I don't take them literally, but figuratively.

Lalwende, you do seem extremely fond of this book. Care to review it for us? Sounds interesting.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Seems to me that Anodos ended the story alive, and that was why the story is unsatisfying-- especially after having read "I was dead, and right content." Death is MacDonald's satisfaction; everything points that way. Anything else and we are bound to be dissatisfied.

Meh.

I think that, plotwise, the fatal error in the story is Anodos' death, and not his coming back to life on Earth. In order for the story to be related to its readers, in first perseon, and in a 'suspended dis-believable' fashion, it was necessary that Anodos should end the story able to write and publish. There is a story written by Robert E. Howard about a man who relates his story in first person, which is about a warrior in CroMagnon times, who defeats a giant slug, but is killed himself in the venture; and he can tell it in first person on the merit of reincarnation. Though I don't believe in reincarnation, the story works plot-wise. The reason Anodos' death and transmogrification (or whatever you would like to call it) back into Earthly life, is not only an anti-climax, but frankly against nature, especially Fairy-nature. Those humans foolish enough to go into Fairy and then put themselves in danger of death, die in Fairyland, and do not return to Earthly life; it's just not the way it works. So the upshot is that the book is either supremely dissatisfying, or must be rejected (or at least criticized) as portraying a falsehood as to what Fairy is.

In regard to your point that Heaven is the only acceptable conclusion to death, and thus return to Earthly life is dissatisfying, I agree. Which is why I think the story has a fatal flaw as story. Pity.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Those humans foolish enough to go into Fairy and then put themselves in danger of death, die in Fairyland, and do not return to Earthly life; it's just not the way it works. So the upshot is that the book is either supremely dissatisfying, or must be rejected (or at least criticized) as portraying a falsehood as to what Fairy is.

Spoken with the certainty of experience.

So Faery can have neither "waterboarding" nor "near-death experiences" or "out-of-body-experiences" for any reason whatsoever-- even if you are sent there (instead of stumbling there) to learn a specific set of lessons for a specific set of reasons?

I thought the original Faery Grandmother/ Godmother/ Lady Of The Desk had more of a doom/destiny/purifying air about her. IMO, Anodos was in for it, from day one.

Smith had a different reason for going.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

So Faery can have neither "waterboarding" nor "near-death experiences" or "out-of-body-experiences" for any reason whatsoever-- even if you are sent there (instead of stumbling there) to learn a specific set of lessons for a specific set of reasons?

I thought the original Faery Grandmother/ Godmother/ Lady Of The Desk had more of a doom/destiny/purifying air about her. IMO, Anodos was in for it, from day one.

Okay, perhaps I was splitting hairs. The problem, then, is that he both dies and returns. That, I guess, is what I really find to be the failure in the book. You can't have it both ways in Faery, right?

[mark12_30]

So are you saying that you can't both die and return in Rhode Island? What is it about Faerie that rules out returning from the dead? And if you've returned from the dead, why can't you return from Faerie? I don't understand your objection.

To me your argument-- if you die in Faerie you can't come back-- puts Faerie in charge of your mortality. Which would be like saying, if Frodo goes to the undying lands, he has to live forever. No; he's mortal; he's bound by Eru's plan for him.

So if Lazarus had died in Faerie, no raising allowed?

[littlemanpoet]

You're trying to conclude a general principle out of something I've said about the particular work known as Phantastes. I'm not willing to make a general principle out of it.

And I'm not entirely sure why it doesn't work that Anodos dies in Fairy and comes to life in "real life". Dreams do work that way, except that in a dream, the moment you die, not knowing what it's like on the other side, you immediately wake up. In contrast, Anodos actually experiences being dead, making the death state a part of his imagined reality, making death a part of Faery. The reader is left wondering if he really died. We are, as readers, expected to accept Anodos' words at face value, that he actually died in Faery and came to life, and that he can actually remember what he experienced in his Faery-death. Okay, maybe that's okay in this story. But I am still left dissatisfied. I'm not sure why. I'll have to think about this some more.