Farmer Giles of Ham - obviously Catholic? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Beleg Cuthalion · 11-24-2006, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

*Interestingly, though not actually Catholic, January 14 is New Year's Day in Eastern Orthodoxy and on the Julian calendar.

I think that's the day it was observed by the Catholic church untill the adoption of the Gregorian calendar in 1582.

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-24-2006, 02:35 PM

Thanks for the answers so far!

Ninja, I'm not actually attempting to interpret this particular work of Tolkien's as being religious - it's just that the saints' name days, used here to mark time instead of months and dates, are Catholic in origin. Since I now live in a region that is traditionally Catholic, I have grown familiar with this concept. Some saints' days are called by the saint's name in normal secular usage here in Germany, and everyone knows which date is meant.

Child, as always, I look forward to reading your thoughts on this topic!

Lal, you're right, of course, as to the reason for the use of the saints' days as the calendarium of the Middle Ages - a logical result of the medieval time frame chosen for this story. I find your insights on the folk tale backgrounds of elements in the story fascinating!

Thanks, Beleg, for that additional bit of information on January 14 as New Year's Day.

My thoughts were not so much on the reason for using Catholic elements in the story, since I'm enough aware of church history to know how important the only Christian church's influence was at that time. I'm more interested in finding connections between the dates/name days and the events Tolkien has placed there - why, for example, are both of Giles' encounters with the dragon set on days associated with light?

And I would like to hear if anyone has more information on "St. Hilarius" and "St. Felix" - Formendacil, are you reading this? Do you know anything that can enlighten us, or are these parodic saints' names?

Anguirel · 11-24-2006, 02:59 PM

More later on this fascinating topic, but for now, I shall content myself with revealing Pope, later Saint, Hilarius

Perhaps the most amusing of all Popes...were I elected I would struggle to resist becoming Hilarius II...

Perhaps more interestingly, there was a Latin poet of the same name, active in 1125 I beleive, who was thought to have been an Englishman due to one poem entitled "An English Boy", or something of the sort.

More generally, Hilarius and Felix both indicate levity and set the tale's light tone.

Lalwendë · 11-24-2006, 03:10 PM

Hilarius? AKA Hilary? Yes, Esty, Tolkien could indeed be making a parody of his own brother! Maybe to make the children laugh?

I had a look in the C&G (listen, I'll wear you all down eventually and you will all be asking for this truly eye-poppingly superb and superior tome for Christmas, it is, quite literally, 'definitive') about Farmer Giles, and it was originally conceived as a story for his children (just like The Hobbit!). Tolkien fancied publishing it after The Hobbit, and young Rayner Unwin even reviewed it positively. but for several reasons it took some time to be put into print, by which time Tolkien had done numerous rewrites. It does seem he wanted it to be light-hearted and humorous, so no 'message', but he did want it to be seen as a tale that might have come from the 3rd to the 5th centuries.

Encaitare · 11-25-2006, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lal

It does seem he wanted it to be light-hearted and humorous, so no 'message', but he did want it to be seen as a tale that might have come from the 3rd to the 5th centuries.

That was the impression I got, not that it was a Catholic work in that it was trying to put out a message, but that the religious elements were just a part of the culture of the characters. I find that a much more agreeable way of looking at it than the other way around, too.

Ghazi · 11-26-2006, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encaitare

...the religious elements were just a part of the culture of the characters. I find that a much more agreeable way of looking at it than the other way around, too.

I do too.

Estelyn Telcontar · 05-29-2007, 02:08 PM

I dug out my copy of Farmer Giles with the notes by Scull and Hammond to prepare for something else, and found a note on the feast of St. Hilarius and St. Felix:

Quote:

14 January, formerly the feast day of both St Hilarius of Poitiers and St Felix of Nola.

Perhaps not important, but a footnote that answers the question I raised earlier about those to me unknown saints.

11-24-2006, 02:35 PM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Thanks for the answers so far! Ninja, I'm not actually attempting to interpret this particular work of Tolkien's as being religious - it's just that the saints' name days, used here to mark time instead of months and dates, are Catholic in origin. Since I now live in a region that is traditionally Catholic, I have grown familiar with this concept. Some saints' days are called by the saint's name in normal secular usage here in Germany, and everyone knows which date is meant. Child, as always, I look forward to reading your thoughts on this topic! Lal, you're right, of course, as to the reason for the use of the saints' days as the calendarium of the Middle Ages - a logical result of the medieval time frame chosen for this story. I find your insights on the folk tale backgrounds of elements in the story fascinating! Thanks, Beleg, for that additional bit of information on January 14 as New Year's Day. My thoughts were not so much on the reason for using Catholic elements in the story, since I'm enough aware of church history to know how important the only Christian church's influence was at that time. I'm more interested in finding connections between the dates/name days and the events Tolkien has placed there - why, for example, are both of Giles' encounters with the dragon set on days associated with light? And I would like to hear if anyone has more information on "St. Hilarius" and "St. Felix" - Formendacil, are you reading this? Do you know anything that can enlighten us, or are these parodic saints' names? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-24-2006, 02:59 PM	#3
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	More later on this fascinating topic, but for now, I shall content myself with revealing Pope, later Saint, Hilarius Perhaps the most amusing of all Popes...were I elected I would struggle to resist becoming Hilarius II... Perhaps more interestingly, there was a Latin poet of the same name, active in 1125 I beleive, who was thought to have been an Englishman due to one poem entitled "An English Boy", or something of the sort. More generally, Hilarius and Felix both indicate levity and set the tale's light tone. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

11-24-2006, 03:10 PM	#4
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Hilarius? AKA Hilary? Yes, Esty, Tolkien could indeed be making a parody of his own brother! Maybe to make the children laugh? I had a look in the C&G (listen, I'll wear you all down eventually and you will all be asking for this truly eye-poppingly superb and superior tome for Christmas, it is, quite literally, 'definitive') about Farmer Giles, and it was originally conceived as a story for his children (just like The Hobbit!). Tolkien fancied publishing it after The Hobbit, and young Rayner Unwin even reviewed it positively. but for several reasons it took some time to be put into print, by which time Tolkien had done numerous rewrites. It does seem he wanted it to be light-hearted and humorous, so no 'message', but he did want it to be seen as a tale that might have come from the 3rd to the 5th centuries. __________________ Gordon's alive!