Most Tragic Moment?

[Raynor]

The departing of Aragorn; all in all, Arwen must have had the most tragic fate of all elves - she experienced the inherent sadness of the elves, the poisoning and departure of her mother, the final separation from her family and race and, finnaly, the departing (premature some might say) of Aragorn. This last tragic moment in her life must have topped them all - here is the man for whom she foresook everything, and he just couldn't stay around more. I know, I know, he is supposed to embody the great virtues Men should have displayed in their unmarred state, including willful departure, but I can't help thinking he was a wee bit egoistic.

[Aaron]

Egotistic? Well, he was certainly no saint but if he lived on he would become a shadow of his former self and in the long run that would be crueller on Arwen.

[Folwren]

Frodo's departure from the Grey Havens, definitely. That or when Sam thought that Frodo was dead after Shelob attacked him and Sam was trying to figure out what he should do.

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Boromir's death. He had so much potential for good and yet he was cut short before his time.

I think his death is sad, too, but consider it a mercy that the professor killed him when he did and with orcs. Have you ever read the HoME book The Treason of Isengard? In it there is a sort of time line, or lay out of the book, that Tolkien wrote and he was going to have Boromir go on and get worse and worse and eventually get killed by Aragorn... That would have been tragic.

-- Folwren

[Laleena]

I think it was when the COmpany departed their seperate ways. I had always hoped that they would stay together and not part often.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This is a good question that can be answered by newcomers as well as long-time Tolkien readers. Because it involves opinions, not actual book discussion, I'm going to move it to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue to read and post there - thanks!

[Aaron]

Originally Posted by Laleena

I think it was when the COmpany departed their seperate ways. I had always hoped that they would stay together and not part often.

I know exactly what you mean. Gimli's words about how they will never all be together again really saddened me. A sadness worsened when I read the timeline of what happened at the close of the War of The Ring.

[Farael]

Well, to me one of the saddest moments was when Gandalf fell in the mines of Moria. I read The Hobbit first, and then LoTR so I had a soft spot for the old greybeard already.... and it was so sad (and tragic) that he fell to protect the ones he cared about.

Of course when we find out he wasn't dead after all, I was really happy.

Another really tense moment for me was when the orcs take Frodo away. Perhaps it was not tragic in the same way Aragorn's passing away may have been, but I remember finishing The Two Towers and wanting to run to the bookstore to get The Return of The King... even though it was a weekday, close to 10 PM

[Folwren]

Haha! You remember that well, do you, Farael? I was lucky - we own the entire trillogy, so I'm not one of those many people who didn't know that they desperately need to have the RotK directly after the TT. Not that it helps anyway, because it goes to Pippin at the beginning of the RotK instead of telling what happens to Frodo.

But, yes, I think that practically the entire Choices of Master Samwise is the one of the saddest parts, and when Frodo's being taken away by the orcs is part of that. *sniff*

My sister thought that the Breaking of the Fellowship was one of the most tragic parts, but she's not here to say so, so I'll say it for her.

-- Folwren

Originally Posted by Laleena

I think it was when the COmpany departed their seperate ways. I had always hoped that they would stay together and not part often.

Absoulutly

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Raynor

The departing of Aragorn; all in all, Arwen must have had the most tragic fate of all elves - she experienced the inherent sadness of the elves, the poisoning and departure of her mother, the final separation from her family and race and, finnaly, the departing (premature some might say) of Aragorn. This last tragic moment in her life must have topped them all - here is the man for whom she foresook everything, and he just couldn't stay around more. I know, I know, he is supposed to embody the great virtues Men should have displayed in their unmarred state, including willful departure, but I can't help thinking he was a wee bit egoistic.

This might be tragic, but it is in keeping with his fundamentally mortal nature, which he recognizes and accepts. Aragorn was a heroic throwback to the Kings of Numenor, before they became unwilling to lay down their lives of their own free will. Aragorn might have lasted a few more years, but not without descending into senility or some other such infirmity. The key here is to lay down one's life willingly, not to time one's descent into senility and infirmity exactly. So I think Aragorn did as he should have in this case, and in fact, really did not have another meaningful choice.

Perhaps the tragic part was that he convinced Arwen to join with him and become mortal herself. Once she did this, the die were cast, as they say... So if Aragorn is a wee bit egotistical, then it is in joining with Arwen in the first place, rather than letting her go into the West (perhaps this is what you meant).

Anyway, I agree there is a tragic element here, I just don't think it can be attributed to Aragorn's early departure--the tragic part is that Arwen laid down her immortality and only fully realized what this meant at the very end.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Anyway, I agree there is a tragic element here, I just don't think it can be attributed to Aragorn's early departure--the tragic part is that Arwen laid down her immortality and only fully realized what this meant at the very end.

But is it so tragic? By making her choice, Arwen sundered herself permanently from her (birth) family, which must have caused her great sadness. But she did so to spend the remainder of her (now) mortal days with the one that she loved. And beyond that? No one knows. But the hope is that she will spend the rest of eternity with him (and their mortal descendants) beyond the circles of the world.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But is it so tragic? By making her choice, Arwen sundered herself permanently from her (birth) family, which must have caused her great sadness. But she did so to spend the remainder of her (now) mortal days with the one that she loved. And beyond that? No one knows. But the hope is that she will spend the rest of eternity with him (and their mortal descendants) beyond the circles of the world.

What you say is true. Living forever in a fleshly form and body as the elves did would become wearisome, especially if you left someone you who loved enough to marry. It would haunt you forever. I think her choice is beautiful, even if it is somewhat sad.

-- Folwren

[Bêthberry]

I cannot help but think it is an emblem of most women's lives, given in sacrifice to others and then completely forgotten. Almost beyond what I would expect of Tolkien, but not quite.

[Folwren]

What you say, Bethberry, reminds me of the part in the book when Pippin first sees Eowyn dressed as a man and when she looks up with the look in her eye of one searching for death. . .don't know why it reminds me of that part, but that was rather tragic.

-- Folwren

[doug*platypus]

If we're talking about LOTR, then I think that Frodo's failure to find healing on his return to the Shire is tragic:

On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream. "It is gone for ever," he said, "and now all is dark and empty."

But the most tragic IMHO is the fall of Saruman from wise and noble head of the White Council to a beggar in the wilderness, without home or means to survive. Of course, his later deeds in the Shire make me feel less pity for him!

If we're talking about all of Tolkien's books, then The Silmarillion is tragerama! Page after page of sorrow and loss! Most tragic in all the books, I would say, is Fingolfin's vain attempt to take Morgoth down in single combat.

Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him.

Although, if anyone were to argue that Túrin's life story were more tragic, I could not say much in way of argument.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Folwren

What you say, Bethberry, reminds me of the part in the book when Pippin first sees Eowyn dressed as a man and when she looks up with the look in her eye of one searching for death. . .don't know why it reminds me of that part, but that was rather tragic.

-- Folwren

Hmm, yes. Tolkien's depiction of women was rather tragic, eh?