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Old 11-27-2006, 02:10 AM   #1
Raynor
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I don't buy it; he was the chief hero of the quest, he received the "highest honours" from the king; his quest itself has sparked in hobbits a strong interest in their history. In a world where even the valar are subject to errors (letter #212), I doubt that we can ascribe faults to someone carrying the ring, since all his judgement will be bent to a certain extent by the evil power. I take his wounds to mean sacrifice rather than punishment; his merit is even higher considering that he actually fulfilled his mandate:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #246
His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that.
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Old 11-27-2006, 04:46 AM   #2
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Perhaps the difference arises from the contrast between that old warrior code of honour and battle and glory and the code which Tolkien also upholds here, that even the very small and weak can make a significant difference. While it is true that Frodo has to experience the full significance of being a ring-bearer, I don't think it can be said that Frodo is guilty of trespass, violation, or transgression.

Besides, does the word 'sinner' really belong in LotR?
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Old 11-27-2006, 06:33 AM   #3
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A wild set of assumptions, presumptions, and blind leaps:

If you asked Tokien whether Frodo was guilty of those things-- folly, overconfidence and weakness-- I doubt he would disagree. Gandalf used some of the same words in various places and I think Tolkien also used them in his letters. Consequences happen, and consequences for folly, overconfidence and weakness happen.

However, I also doubt that TOlkien would have attatched any emotional, judgemental, or condemnatory importance to them. For Tolkien, Frodo's virtuies so outshone his weaknesses that Frodo's weaknesses are negligible. Consider the phrasing in Tolkien's letter (191) regarding Mount Doom, in which he implies, "judge not":

Quote:
No, Frodo 'failed'. It is possible that once the ring was destroyed he had little recollection of the last scene. But one must face the fact: the power of Evil in the world is not finally resistable by incarnate creatures, however 'good'; and the Writer of the Story is not one of us.
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Old 11-27-2006, 07:35 AM   #4
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I don't buy it either.
Why was it folly that led to Frodo being stabbed on Weathertop? I doubt he could have escaped the Witch-King even if he hadn't used the ring. On the other hand, his behaviour in the Prancing Pony was folly and all the punishments he received for that were some harsh words by Strider.
The sting was clearly Frodo's fault, though I'm not sure if overconfidence is the right term.
And, as has been stated before, on Orodruin he did all he could, but failed in the end.

What I don't understand is how one makes sins out of these. Folly sure isn't a good thing, but a sin? I think that takes it to far. And failing a task that goes beyond one's abilities while giving every effort is a sin? How do you get such an idea?

Also, there are faults and misjudgements in LotR that are not punished. (Pippin in Moria f.ex.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry
Besides, does the word 'sinner' really belong in LotR?
I agree. I don't recall having read the words 'sin' or 'sinner' in both LotR and Silmarillion. They always seems alien to me when they are used in the context of Tolkien's works.
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:04 AM   #5
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There is only one referrence in Tolkien's works on sins, that I know of, and even that favors Frodo:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Footnote to Melkor / Morgoth, Myths Transformed, HoME X
Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:39 AM   #6
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Very interesting thread, doug*p. What strikes me right off is that Frodo might have viewed things not too far differently from Carter's analysis.
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:49 AM   #7
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I don't think that Frodo experienced guilt for his errors; any suffering he had after the quest is derrived, in my opinion, from wounds, or the impregnation of the ring. At the entrance of Sammath Naur, Frodo already finds peace after the ring's destruction, and I don't think he fell from that state.
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:55 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Underhill
Very interesting thread, doug*p. What strikes me right off is that Frodo might have viewed things not too far differently from Carter's analysis.
This is an interesting way to view d*p's quotation from Carter--not in absolute or omniscient terms but from the character's point of view.

Does Frodo feel a sense of failure? Why? What causes him to put such a high judgement upon himself? Would that cause be related to what motivated him to accept bearing the Ring? Is there a special psychology to being this kind of Ring bearer? Does Frodo begin with a burden of confidence?

As an aside, what specifically are the errors of fact which Carter makes, d*p? Does he list texts which are unrelated or is his conception of "paving the way" for LotR in err? Errors in one area can oftentimes forewarn of errors elsewhere.
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