I don't understand this either... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Durelin · 11-30-2006, 07:12 PM

I feel the need to say one more thing...

I would have thought of it on my own, just not seriously.

I don't really find it at all disturbing or incomprehensible for someone to think of it - just to think of it, like a simple musing or observation. But to think of it seriously? Thinking of it as true? No.

Brinniel · 11-30-2006, 08:04 PM

It seems ever since the movies were first released, the idea of Frodo and Sam being gay has been around. I do think it's just a joke and most don't take it seriously, but still, after awhile it can be quite sickening.

As mentioned, I think this mostly comes from the idea that the true male hero is supposed to "manly," meaning they cannot show any sort of emotion or affection. I hate the fact that in this day and age, people automatically assume that a man's love for another man can only be sexual. Men aren't robots- they're human. I appreciate that PJ kept the characters' affections for each other in the movies. For this, perhaps the relationships (another automatic assumption these days- that relationships are always romantic- no, friendships are relationships too) shown in the films are more realistic and human than most films you see in theatres today. Most films don't show that sort of affection, and it influences our culture. Maybe if more movies showed the type of love between characters that is seen in LotR, then relationships between Sam and Frodo and Aragorn and Legolas wouldn't be perceived as gay.

The problem is that in our society, homosexuality has become so frowned down upon. Straight males don't want to be misinterpreted as gay, so it's important for them to stick to their "manly" behavior. I noticed in my high school, many guys would joke about homosexuality...sometimes they would go as far as imitating gay males. How would they do this? By hugging each other (apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay

) and slapping each other's butts. Joking around and commenting that Sam and Frodo are so obviously gay is similar to that. Most people joke about this simply because they are uncomfortable with the subject of homosexuality. It's their own problem and they need to get over it.

That said, I've been lucky enough not to deal with most of those problems for the last few months. A large percentage of my school is gay, so most students understand the line between what's just friendship and what's sexual. No one is uncomfortable about homosexuality, therefore jokes don't need to be made about it. Then again, I think the straight males at my school often feel the need to be extra "manly" because it is extremely easy for them to be misinterpreted as gay...

Rikae · 11-30-2006, 08:11 PM

I agree with much of what has already been said. I think it's a symptom of people's inability to understand the idea of platonic love or real friendship anymore. It seems like this is especially the case in America, as Boro says, and I find it incredibly sad: people who can't comprehend the idea of love that is not romantic/sexual are missing so much in life. I also think a lot of the giggling, in the case of teens, is an attempt to fit in and not necessarily a reflection of their feelings. I seem to recall (when I was a teenager, at least) the 'naughtiest' ideas being, somehow the safest; they put you in a position of power, while appearing naive is a fate worse than death!

Thinlómien · 12-01-2006, 03:10 AM

Oh, this seems to have provoked quite many replies.

Anyway, I wanted to hear your thoughts before saying mine, and I must say I'm on the same lines along with many people here: there was no hidden gay agenda, people see what they want to see and the concept of friendship between males is crooked nowadays.

In the books the male characters show their affection and love to each other too. When in the Houses of healing it is said that Aragorn kisses Merry, I don't think anyone reading the book regards it as a homoerotic scene, or more importantly, as a romantic kiss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

Like when viewing clouds, people see what they want. Having watched LotR many times now, I've noticed that PJ is very anti-Penguin.. Have you seen even one penguin in the whole 12+ hours of film? Pretty clear, the statement that he's making...

Ahh! I KNEW there was something terribly wrong with the movies! I knew!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune

The books clearly states that there is love between the different male charachters, it was love for Aragorn that made the grey company and others walk the path of the dead and so on.

I agree. Legolas (at least) mentions his love for Aragorn a couple of times. First he says that all that know Aragorn love him in some way (he knows Aragorn so that clearly includes himself) and later when he speaks with Gimli about the restoring of Minas Tirith he says that it's also for "love for the Lord of The White Tree". I've never seen this as homosexul, and given the contexts, I don't think anyone else can see it either. (No, not even a homophobic teenager boy ... Or maybe actually, but the point was that it's not certainly the first thing to pop in the mind of an average reader.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune

Of course it could be that Tolkien belives that love in its purest form only can be shared betwen two men! Not necesarily sexual. . . .

I think he actually says so in the letters, but I'm not sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zali

It's almost as though true friendships don't really exist for the media...and when they do, they're always between girls.

Yes, but the friendships between girls are portrayed as superficious and the way that they can break any time when the girls fall in love with the same guy...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boro

I believe it's better understood in other parts of the world, as the common greeting method in Europe (whether it's a male greeting a male or not) is to kiss him on the cheeks.

Well, yes, maybe southern Europe, but not in Finland. Though there is some cultural difference. I once watched an american reality tv show (the format being something like 10 straight guys and 10 gay guys and a woman who has to pick a straight one) where there were two men that had to sleep in the same room and there was only a pair bed in the room. What do these guys do? They flip a coin which one has to sleep on the floor. Really, I think that's ridiculous. I bet in Finland the attitude would have been something like "I can sleep beside you, but if you do something guy I'll butcher you".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brinniel

(apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay)

That's so true. A friend of mine (straight guy) said it was one of the greatest moments in his life, when parting from his friends when changing school, his best friend came and hugged him. This friend of mine has grown up in a "men can be just friends and hug each other" -atmosphere and he said it's really distressing that guys can't hug their friends, since hugging is for him a natural way of showing affection. Sadly, this friend of mine is definitely an exception among the guys here in Finland.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 12-01-2006, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother of Folwren

"They just don't understand what real friendship is like. You stick two of those boys or young men together, give them a gun and send them out to fight in Vietnam by themselves and they'll become close friends, too!"

I think it more likely that they would get killed. . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brinniel

The problem is that in our society, homosexuality has become so frowned down upon. Straight males don't want to be misinterpreted as gay, so it's important for them to stick to their "manly" behavior. I noticed in my high school, many guys would joke about homosexuality...sometimes they would go as far as imitating gay males. How would they do this? By hugging each other (apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay ) and slapping each other's butts. Joking around and commenting that Sam and Frodo are so obviously gay is similar to that. Most people joke about this simply because they are uncomfortable with the subject of homosexuality. It's their own problem and they need to get over it.

Actually in the Homophobic parts of Denmark guys would never pretend to be gay. . . but the thing about pretending to be gay is something people do. . .something I do. Let me tell you that it has absolutely nothing to do with homophobia, if anything it is an expresion of the opposite. How do we do it. . . well we actually make passes at each other and such. Not by hugging, because hugging is the way good friends greet each other (yes males too).

Some of my friends are gay so I really would hate to be labeled homophobic because I joke about being gay. It is more a thing we do to signal that we really don't care which sexual orientation people have.

I have done stuff that would probably make people "mark" me as gay in alot of places. . .but it held no meaning for me. It was kind of "I do this because I chose to and you can make of it what you want"

Boromir88 · 12-01-2006, 08:53 AM

Quote:

apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay)~Brinniel

The typical man-to-man hug (I've witnessed and I do the most) is to shake with one hand, pull in, and with the other arm give them a hug. So, it's kind of like a one-arm hug.

With family though it's a bit different the 'full hug' is most commonly used.

alatar · 12-01-2006, 12:26 PM

This man-to-man thing may be cultural, genetic and/or specific to individuals. If male children are raised in households where 'Dad' does not hug them, said child may grow to think that such behavior is unacceptable between males. Children seem to be imprinted in the first few years of their lives, and if Dad is not present, or unemotional/detached/distracted, then this may affect the child. On the other hand, knowing something about genetics and individuals (having a few children myself

), each child is unique, regardless how it is raised. Some are more needy, more touchy, more cerebral, more physical, etc.

And within cultures there are groups where hugging between males is acceptable, even though the person may not be a touchy person and the person lives, for example, in the USA. Plus, men, on average, are different than women (Duh!) for survival reasons. My wife is the nurturer, pulling the kids close. Me, I'm the one getting them ready to leave the nest and survive in the world. The kids benefit (hopefully) from having us both.

Anyway...

PJ, no dolt, obviously knew that some would see things that he did not intend. Is this why he has Sam talking of Rosie and eventually getting married at the end of all things? On the other hand, there's the 'bedroom scene' where the Fellowship wrestle a bit too much, and so maybe that was put it so that those looking for penguins would having something to see.

Lalwendë · 12-01-2006, 03:43 PM

Boro, most of what you say about men in the US is the same in the UK! Never ever approach a Brit you do not already know very well with a hug or (heaven forbid!) a kiss on the cheek or you will be labelled as 'forward' and therefore suspect, whether male or female. Male casual friendships (and many serious, lifelong ones, too) usually revolve around beer, arguments about football and cars and a lot of competitive bragging and banter. Only in Yorkshire, where the men are confident of their ultra-butchness are men able to call one another 'love' with impunity.

Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women. I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be. As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one. And even adult women like to daydream about characters in films and on TV - this is why Mr Darcy (as played by Colin Firth) is now symbolic of the 'dream man' for so many women, and Helen Fielding cleverly picked up on it for Bridget Jones (about the only clever thing...grumble grumble...).

Some people will go on about this or that 'pairing' in LotR (or any other film) being 'gay' because they wish to joke, sadly, and labelling something as 'gay' denigrates it in their minds, so don't listen to everything you hear. But even from the books its perfectly possible to read homoeroticism into some aspects, e.g. the relationship of Frodo and Sam, and its not 'wrong' to do so.

11-30-2006, 08:04 PM	#2
Brinniel Reflection of Darkness Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull. Posts: 2,983	It seems ever since the movies were first released, the idea of Frodo and Sam being gay has been around. I do think it's just a joke and most don't take it seriously, but still, after awhile it can be quite sickening. As mentioned, I think this mostly comes from the idea that the true male hero is supposed to "manly," meaning they cannot show any sort of emotion or affection. I hate the fact that in this day and age, people automatically assume that a man's love for another man can only be sexual. Men aren't robots- they're human. I appreciate that PJ kept the characters' affections for each other in the movies. For this, perhaps the relationships (another automatic assumption these days- that relationships are always romantic- no, friendships are relationships too) shown in the films are more realistic and human than most films you see in theatres today. Most films don't show that sort of affection, and it influences our culture. Maybe if more movies showed the type of love between characters that is seen in LotR, then relationships between Sam and Frodo and Aragorn and Legolas wouldn't be perceived as gay. The problem is that in our society, homosexuality has become so frowned down upon. Straight males don't want to be misinterpreted as gay, so it's important for them to stick to their "manly" behavior. I noticed in my high school, many guys would joke about homosexuality...sometimes they would go as far as imitating gay males. How would they do this? By hugging each other (apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay ) and slapping each other's butts. Joking around and commenting that Sam and Frodo are so obviously gay is similar to that. Most people joke about this simply because they are uncomfortable with the subject of homosexuality. It's their own problem and they need to get over it. That said, I've been lucky enough not to deal with most of those problems for the last few months. A large percentage of my school is gay, so most students understand the line between what's just friendship and what's sexual. No one is uncomfortable about homosexuality, therefore jokes don't need to be made about it. Then again, I think the straight males at my school often feel the need to be extra "manly" because it is extremely easy for them to be misinterpreted as gay... __________________ Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

12-01-2006, 12:26 PM	#7
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	This man-to-man thing may be cultural, genetic and/or specific to individuals. If male children are raised in households where 'Dad' does not hug them, said child may grow to think that such behavior is unacceptable between males. Children seem to be imprinted in the first few years of their lives, and if Dad is not present, or unemotional/detached/distracted, then this may affect the child. On the other hand, knowing something about genetics and individuals (having a few children myself ), each child is unique, regardless how it is raised. Some are more needy, more touchy, more cerebral, more physical, etc. And within cultures there are groups where hugging between males is acceptable, even though the person may not be a touchy person and the person lives, for example, in the USA. Plus, men, on average, are different than women (Duh!) for survival reasons. My wife is the nurturer, pulling the kids close. Me, I'm the one getting them ready to leave the nest and survive in the world. The kids benefit (hopefully) from having us both. Anyway... PJ, no dolt, obviously knew that some would see things that he did not intend. Is this why he has Sam talking of Rosie and eventually getting married at the end of all things? On the other hand, there's the 'bedroom scene' where the Fellowship wrestle a bit too much, and so maybe that was put it so that those looking for penguins would having something to see. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

12-01-2006, 03:43 PM	#8
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Boro, most of what you say about men in the US is the same in the UK! Never ever approach a Brit you do not already know very well with a hug or (heaven forbid!) a kiss on the cheek or you will be labelled as 'forward' and therefore suspect, whether male or female. Male casual friendships (and many serious, lifelong ones, too) usually revolve around beer, arguments about football and cars and a lot of competitive bragging and banter. Only in Yorkshire, where the men are confident of their ultra-butchness are men able to call one another 'love' with impunity. Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women. I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be. As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one. And even adult women like to daydream about characters in films and on TV - this is why Mr Darcy (as played by Colin Firth) is now symbolic of the 'dream man' for so many women, and Helen Fielding cleverly picked up on it for Bridget Jones (about the only clever thing...grumble grumble...). Some people will go on about this or that 'pairing' in LotR (or any other film) being 'gay' because they wish to joke, sadly, and labelling something as 'gay' denigrates it in their minds, so don't listen to everything you hear. But even from the books its perfectly possible to read homoeroticism into some aspects, e.g. the relationship of Frodo and Sam, and its not 'wrong' to do so. __________________ Gordon's alive!

11-30-2006, 07:12 PM	#1
Durelin Estelo dagnir, Melo ring Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,063	I feel the need to say one more thing... I would have thought of it on my own, just not seriously. I don't really find it at all disturbing or incomprehensible for someone to think of it - just to think of it, like a simple musing or observation. But to think of it seriously? Thinking of it as true? No.

11-30-2006, 08:11 PM	#3
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	I agree with much of what has already been said. I think it's a symptom of people's inability to understand the idea of platonic love or real friendship anymore. It seems like this is especially the case in America, as Boro says, and I find it incredibly sad: people who can't comprehend the idea of love that is not romantic/sexual are missing so much in life. I also think a lot of the giggling, in the case of teens, is an attempt to fit in and not necessarily a reflection of their feelings. I seem to recall (when I was a teenager, at least) the 'naughtiest' ideas being, somehow the safest; they put you in a position of power, while appearing naive is a fate worse than death!