I don't understand this either...

[Thinlómien]

Oh, this seems to have provoked quite many replies.

Anyway, I wanted to hear your thoughts before saying mine, and I must say I'm on the same lines along with many people here: there was no hidden gay agenda, people see what they want to see and the concept of friendship between males is crooked nowadays.

In the books the male characters show their affection and love to each other too. When in the Houses of healing it is said that Aragorn kisses Merry, I don't think anyone reading the book regards it as a homoerotic scene, or more importantly, as a romantic kiss.

Originally Posted by alatar

Like when viewing clouds, people see what they want. Having watched LotR many times now, I've noticed that PJ is very anti-Penguin.. Have you seen even one penguin in the whole 12+ hours of film? Pretty clear, the statement that he's making...

Ahh! I KNEW there was something terribly wrong with the movies! I knew!

Originally Posted by Rune

The books clearly states that there is love between the different male charachters, it was love for Aragorn that made the grey company and others walk the path of the dead and so on.

I agree. Legolas (at least) mentions his love for Aragorn a couple of times. First he says that all that know Aragorn love him in some way (he knows Aragorn so that clearly includes himself) and later when he speaks with Gimli about the restoring of Minas Tirith he says that it's also for "love for the Lord of The White Tree". I've never seen this as homosexul, and given the contexts, I don't think anyone else can see it either. (No, not even a homophobic teenager boy ... Or maybe actually, but the point was that it's not certainly the first thing to pop in the mind of an average reader.)

Originally Posted by Rune

Of course it could be that Tolkien belives that love in its purest form only can be shared betwen two men! Not necesarily sexual. . . .

I think he actually says so in the letters, but I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Zali

It's almost as though true friendships don't really exist for the media...and when they do, they're always between girls.

Yes, but the friendships between girls are portrayed as superficious and the way that they can break any time when the girls fall in love with the same guy...

Originally Posted by Boro

I believe it's better understood in other parts of the world, as the common greeting method in Europe (whether it's a male greeting a male or not) is to kiss him on the cheeks.

Well, yes, maybe southern Europe, but not in Finland. Though there is some cultural difference. I once watched an american reality tv show (the format being something like 10 straight guys and 10 gay guys and a woman who has to pick a straight one) where there were two men that had to sleep in the same room and there was only a pair bed in the room. What do these guys do? They flip a coin which one has to sleep on the floor. Really, I think that's ridiculous. I bet in Finland the attitude would have been something like "I can sleep beside you, but if you do something guy I'll butcher you".

Originally Posted by Brinniel

(apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay)

That's so true. A friend of mine (straight guy) said it was one of the greatest moments in his life, when parting from his friends when changing school, his best friend came and hugged him. This friend of mine has grown up in a "men can be just friends and hug each other" -atmosphere and he said it's really distressing that guys can't hug their friends, since hugging is for him a natural way of showing affection. Sadly, this friend of mine is definitely an exception among the guys here in Finland.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Brother of Folwren

"They just don't understand what real friendship is like. You stick two of those boys or young men together, give them a gun and send them out to fight in Vietnam by themselves and they'll become close friends, too!"

I think it more likely that they would get killed. . .

Originally Posted by Brinniel

The problem is that in our society, homosexuality has become so frowned down upon. Straight males don't want to be misinterpreted as gay, so it's important for them to stick to their "manly" behavior. I noticed in my high school, many guys would joke about homosexuality...sometimes they would go as far as imitating gay males. How would they do this? By hugging each other (apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay ) and slapping each other's butts. Joking around and commenting that Sam and Frodo are so obviously gay is similar to that. Most people joke about this simply because they are uncomfortable with the subject of homosexuality. It's their own problem and they need to get over it.

Actually in the Homophobic parts of Denmark guys would never pretend to be gay. . . but the thing about pretending to be gay is something people do. . .something I do. Let me tell you that it has absolutely nothing to do with homophobia, if anything it is an expresion of the opposite. How do we do it. . . well we actually make passes at each other and such. Not by hugging, because hugging is the way good friends greet each other (yes males too).

Some of my friends are gay so I really would hate to be labeled homophobic because I joke about being gay. It is more a thing we do to signal that we really don't care which sexual orientation people have.

I have done stuff that would probably make people "mark" me as gay in alot of places. . .but it held no meaning for me. It was kind of "I do this because I chose to and you can make of it what you want"

[Boromir88]

apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay)~Brinniel

The typical man-to-man hug (I've witnessed and I do the most) is to shake with one hand, pull in, and with the other arm give them a hug. So, it's kind of like a one-arm hug. With family though it's a bit different the 'full hug' is most commonly used.

[alatar]

This man-to-man thing may be cultural, genetic and/or specific to individuals. If male children are raised in households where 'Dad' does not hug them, said child may grow to think that such behavior is unacceptable between males. Children seem to be imprinted in the first few years of their lives, and if Dad is not present, or unemotional/detached/distracted, then this may affect the child. On the other hand, knowing something about genetics and individuals (having a few children myself ), each child is unique, regardless how it is raised. Some are more needy, more touchy, more cerebral, more physical, etc.

And within cultures there are groups where hugging between males is acceptable, even though the person may not be a touchy person and the person lives, for example, in the USA. Plus, men, on average, are different than women (Duh!) for survival reasons. My wife is the nurturer, pulling the kids close. Me, I'm the one getting them ready to leave the nest and survive in the world. The kids benefit (hopefully) from having us both.

Anyway...

PJ, no dolt, obviously knew that some would see things that he did not intend. Is this why he has Sam talking of Rosie and eventually getting married at the end of all things? On the other hand, there's the 'bedroom scene' where the Fellowship wrestle a bit too much, and so maybe that was put it so that those looking for penguins would having something to see.

[Lalwendë]

Boro, most of what you say about men in the US is the same in the UK! Never ever approach a Brit you do not already know very well with a hug or (heaven forbid!) a kiss on the cheek or you will be labelled as 'forward' and therefore suspect, whether male or female. Male casual friendships (and many serious, lifelong ones, too) usually revolve around beer, arguments about football and cars and a lot of competitive bragging and banter. Only in Yorkshire, where the men are confident of their ultra-butchness are men able to call one another 'love' with impunity.

Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women. I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be. As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one. And even adult women like to daydream about characters in films and on TV - this is why Mr Darcy (as played by Colin Firth) is now symbolic of the 'dream man' for so many women, and Helen Fielding cleverly picked up on it for Bridget Jones (about the only clever thing...grumble grumble...).

Some people will go on about this or that 'pairing' in LotR (or any other film) being 'gay' because they wish to joke, sadly, and labelling something as 'gay' denigrates it in their minds, so don't listen to everything you hear. But even from the books its perfectly possible to read homoeroticism into some aspects, e.g. the relationship of Frodo and Sam, and its not 'wrong' to do so.

[Glirdan]

I would have to say that your theory on teenagers having a sexual agenda and applying it to everything they see. It's the hormones. It gets to them (I should say us, but I'm more mature than that...most of the time that is ) really quite easily. If you took a poll of the world's population, how many of them do you think would still be a virgin? Honestly. I go to schooland all I hear from others is "Oh, I slept with so and so over the weekend".

Personally, I too (I hate to admit it, but it was only then) thought that the way our beloved Professor wrote some of the lines between Frodo and Sam was a little homoerotic. However, after reading the parts with Sam and Rosie, I got over it and came to the conclusion that Sam and Frodo hve a very close connection. I personally have never had that connection with another guy because I am too sensitive and most guys (no offence meant for the other males here) only think about sex and girls. So everytime I see two guys really close, I sort of get the homoerotic impression.

Anyway, completely off topic. As I said, I don't think there was any intetion in both the movies or the books for homoeroticness. That's my conclusion. (Wow, I got really off topic in that post....wow...)

[Lalwendë]

Indeed, I would doubt there's any intention on Tolkien's part for such scenes to be homoerotic, but the imagination is a curious thing, and if people get that from reading what he wrote then there is nothing 'wrong' in it; it's surprising what sorts of things the human mind finds stimulating, and writers and artists don't really have any control over our creative imaginings. And anyway, if they will insist on putting Sean Bean in their films....

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women.

I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me one bit.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be.

I think you're right - in the case of adult women - probably not so much what they saw as what they found fun to imagine.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one.

True, but on the other hand, it may just be the flipside of the male fascination with lesbians. There is something appealing about a sexual situation where both people involved are attractive to you; and while being attractive themselves, also share the viewer's appreciation of the other's attractiveness. Double the pleasure, you know, double the fun, doublemint gum...um, yeah.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women. I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be. As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one.

I thought of writing about this one but thought that might be offending to someone...

So, naturally I think you have a point here.

Elijah Wood and Orlando Bloom might form a boyband! Just think of the success - and going by that road, I don't see that anyone can honestly think that PJ (or his production team) chose those actors just because of their acting skills!

------
But going back to Tolkien and the LotR. I think there might be something in Tolkien's writing that does make people of west in our time to look things from homoerotical point of view. That does not mean Tolkien wrote it as such, but that our culture has kind of toned down those parts of our inheritance that would have explained it otherwise.

Just remember Tolkien's early friends and their club of associates and then the war and what it did to that circle of young men. Add to this Tolkien's other experiences of war; not just fear and anxiety but also those of brotherhood and closeness to others in "harms way". I think it's not too far-fetched to read these experiences in the LotR between Frodo and Sam (and possibly between Aragorn and Legolas, maybe even Legolas and Gimli - and Gandalf could be a good general loving his lads whom he sends to the peril... and so on).

But that experience is here no more. The people who lived by the cultural standards of the beginning of the last century are already under the ground and the last veterans of WW2 who have any experience of utmost challenge are getting very old indeed. So we are left out of this experience as a shared one. And that is a good thing - in a sense that we haven't had a war of that scale (or any comparable lenghty tragedy) in the west after the WW2.

But we may mourn the loss of the notion of deeper friendship. We are the people always ready to mourn over things. Like any great artist, T.S. Elliot was ahead of his time when he wrote The Hollow Men (in "The Waste Land") just after the WW1. It fits us now even better than it fitted people then!

Now why is there no comradeship anymore in the old sense as we all seem to be so individual, why is all physical denied in the west unless it's sexual? That's a path I'm not wishing to engage right now, but I know there are a lots of philosophers and sociologists who have spent a good amount of time with this question... enough to fill the Downs, anyway.

PS. Well Vietnam... and now Iraq, might prove exceptions to my point of "no major catastrophy" after WW2. Well, I'm an European... The Vietnam-war produced the hippies - both at the homefront and in the battlefield. It might be too early to tell, what the Iraq-war will generate?

[Holbytlass]

As I was folding a MT Doom mound of laundry I was kind of watching the last hour or so of TRoK on T.N.T. (tv channel) when certain scenes made me think of this thread. Since I wasn't totally engrossed in the movie I saw bits where I can quite see why people thought it was homo-ish. I have Elijah Wood and Peter Jackson to blame.

The scene where Frodo and Sam are now surrounded by the flowing lava after the ring is destroyed and Sam is saying he if he got married it would be to Rosie.
Frodo has that doe-eyed longing look in his face. I thought about it and it would make more sense for Frodo to have a barely there smile cause he's happy for his friend and in reminiscence of the Shire that he can now remember.

Same thing when Sam and Rosie do get married. Frodo has this longing look on his face rather than that same barely there smile between to people have gone through so much together and yet are still happy for each other.

And again. when Frodo wakes up from his ordeal finds Gandalf alive, all the others come into his room but Sam stays by the door. At least in this instance Sam has that barely there smile that I talk about but it's still too much of a longing look.

I know what Peter and Elijah were trying to convey but it was a bit too much.