oldest person in middle earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Valier · 12-19-2006, 11:07 AM

If we are not specifically talking about the oldest Elf, would not one of the Dwarves that Aule made be the oldest? He did make them before the coming of the Elves.

The Might · 12-19-2006, 11:41 AM

however, at the end of the Third Age this dwarf would be long gone...
theoretically one could debate if Durin VII and Last wasn't the oldest...however as mentioned in LOTR the name of Durin was given to a Dwarf if he resembled his famous ancestor a great deal and was believed to be a reincarnation of Durin. But even if this were so, considering he had already died 6 times before makes me not a valid candidate for the title...

Boromir_bg · 01-01-2007, 03:49 PM

I'd say that it's the spider...

The Might · 01-01-2007, 05:45 PM

This can't be, Shelob was not that old.

The earliest definite date we have for Shelob is 1000 SA because we know that she occupied Cirith Ungol 'before the first stone of Barad-dur which was laid at about that timeWe also know, from the same source, that she originally came there 'flying from ruin' - which probably hints that she had fled from the ruin of Beleriand after the War of Wrath, where she probably lived in Ered Gorgoroth before

Now since Ungoliant gave birth to Shelob and her many brothers and sisters after she had crossed the Helcaraxe with Melkor, it is pretty clear that Shelob would not be older then the Elves that awoke at Cuivienen or then some of the Ents, or ultimately then Tom Bombadil.

Boromir_bg · 01-02-2007, 01:17 AM

Okay,I must admit,that cancels my theory about her.Then who?Tom? lol

Amras Oronar · 01-02-2007, 05:34 AM

I'd agree with you on TB, but isn't he perhaps a Maiar? To be honest I havn't red much about TB but from what I have red about him he might very well be a Maiar...

The oldest elf walking arround was defintly Cirdan...

Boromir88 · 01-02-2007, 07:56 AM

Amras to put it in the words of Goldberry...'He is.' Which means he simply just is.

As Tolkien wrote in an unpublished Letter in 1968 (and appears in Hammond and Skulls Lord of the Ring's Companion:

Quote:

'I do not know his origin though I might make guesses. He is best left as he is, a mystery. There are many mysteries in any closed/organized system of history/mythology.'

Ok, so Tolkien leaves Tom B. as an enigma to us all (as I doubt he really knew 'who Tom B. was', but I highly doubt that Tom Bombadil is any character/creature/person that comes from Tolkien's Middle-earth. Because:

Tolkien creates Tom completely from a whole different story seperated from Middle-earth...not the stories he created about the History of Middle-earth. Tom B was conceived long before Tolkien got to work on LOTR or The Silmarillion. He first appears in a story about King Bonhedig, and then later on in the 1930's, Tom Bombadil is in a poem Tolkien wrote where he's traveling down a river in England.

In a Letter to Christopher Fettes in 1961:

Quote:

"So Bombadil is 'fatherless' , he has no historical origin in the world desribed in The Lord of the Rings."

So even though Tom B. is in a story about Middle-earth, he is not of Middle-earth. His origin, he who is does not come from the world Tolkien created in the Lord of the Ring's. Therefor, I doubt he is a Maiar. He is a character that Tolkien wrote small pieces about in stories 'outside' the history of Middle-earth and Tolkien decided to put him into a small part in Lord of the Rings. That doesn't mean Tom B. is of Middle-earth however, that just means he was put into Middle-earth.

Again, Goldberry says it best about Tom...'He is.'

12-19-2006, 11:07 AM	#1
Valier Twisted Taleswapper Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: somewhere between sanity and insanity Posts: 1,706	If we are not specifically talking about the oldest Elf, would not one of the Dwarves that Aule made be the oldest? He did make them before the coming of the Elves. __________________ grand return?........

12-19-2006, 11:41 AM	#2
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	however, at the end of the Third Age this dwarf would be long gone... theoretically one could debate if Durin VII and Last wasn't the oldest...however as mentioned in LOTR the name of Durin was given to a Dwarf if he resembled his famous ancestor a great deal and was believed to be a reincarnation of Durin. But even if this were so, considering he had already died 6 times before makes me not a valid candidate for the title... __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

01-01-2007, 03:49 PM	#3
Boromir_bg Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 16	I'd say that it's the spider... __________________ The Pride of Gondor!

01-01-2007, 05:45 PM	#4
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	This can't be, Shelob was not that old. The earliest definite date we have for Shelob is 1000 SA because we know that she occupied Cirith Ungol 'before the first stone of Barad-dur which was laid at about that timeWe also know, from the same source, that she originally came there 'flying from ruin' - which probably hints that she had fled from the ruin of Beleriand after the War of Wrath, where she probably lived in Ered Gorgoroth before Now since Ungoliant gave birth to Shelob and her many brothers and sisters after she had crossed the Helcaraxe with Melkor, it is pretty clear that Shelob would not be older then the Elves that awoke at Cuivienen or then some of the Ents, or ultimately then Tom Bombadil. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

01-02-2007, 01:17 AM	#5
Boromir_bg Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 16	Okay,I must admit,that cancels my theory about her.Then who?Tom? lol __________________ The Pride of Gondor!

01-02-2007, 05:34 AM	#6
Amras Oronar Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Zoetermeer Posts: 29	I'd agree with you on TB, but isn't he perhaps a Maiar? To be honest I havn't red much about TB but from what I have red about him he might very well be a Maiar... The oldest elf walking arround was defintly Cirdan...