How could the Nazgul take Minas Morgul? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Farael · 12-29-2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Also, why did it take that long to subdue the city at all? In a battle, every single second counts for something important, so what could have taken two years to occur? And how did the defenders stay alive for so long? What was their food supply?

I think that the answer actually lies in your question. What could have taken two years to occur? and on the other hand, two years is far too long for a siege, food supplies may last for a few months, but I wouldn't think much more than that.

So here is my theory:

The nine Nazghul, along with a few other creatures of evil persuasion, started haunting the areas around Minas Ithil. Now, since there is not an army camped outside, all the might of Gondor might not do much of a difference. Furthermore, if Gondor did not have the resources to spare to launch a "turn every stone, search every cave" kind of attack to find them, it's likely that they would have sat there and hoped for the best, doing small skirmishes if they happened to find a specific hot spot. But this kind of warfare probably had negative effects on the population of Minas Ithil, psychological warfare if you need to give it a name. Eventually the population would flee, until the city would be weakened and no longer a "strong point" for Gondor. Once that happens, it is possible that the Nazghul, leading a smaller army recruited during those two years, would have been able to take the city.

That explains the two-year long "siege" and also how the Nine (with some help, but not necessarily a huge army) were able to take Minas Ithil.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 12-30-2006, 05:28 AM

This is what I had in mind and so far it seems the best alternative, if no one comes up with anything better. It was not possible to bring an army of Easterlings through Ithilien since it remained settled for a long time after this, and also "they came out of Mordor through the pass of Cirith Ungol", and I doubt an army larger than Shagrat's squad could pass through Cirith Ungol. So I agree with Farael's explanation of the term "siege", and I also cannot help but remember the movie "Aliens" in connection with this - you know, a colony full of people, but when a recon team comes to find out why there has been no contact, they see only empty corridors...

Amras Oronar · 01-02-2007, 05:43 AM

Well for a siege af course you do need a big army, certainly considering it must have beaten all reiforcements that Gondor send to defend Minas Ithil, which af course if it was a massive siege would have happened. Now after being beaten a few deccenia ago, the Witch King could not have gotten a army big enough to lay a siege upon Minas Ithil, it was simply immpossible.

But af course it isn't immpossible that they have taken Minas Ithil, as explained in other posts they could have well taken Minas Ithil by haunting or something simulair.

Now that leaves us with 2 options, or Tolkien misused the term 'Siege' or this is one of his very few mistakes/ subject he hadn't thought through.

CaptainofDespair · 01-02-2007, 09:44 AM

Hmm...an interesting subject.

I think the discussion so far has neglected (unless I've missed it, which is quite possible) the effect of location. Minas Ithil is basically in Mordor, and the pass that it guards is rather narrow, giving those who sieze it a distinct advantage. Taking this into consideration, I think the term siege fits in quite well. The Nazgul, and whatever army they may have assembled over the course of time, could easily hold such a pass from any returning force of Gondor's while they are sieging it.

A secondary idea to this is that the siege was not on-going in the sense of a constant pounding. With Mordor being 'desolate', I think that the siege could very well be off and on as the Nazgul and their army can manage it. Even if Gondor's army is in short supply of available troops, any force of them is enough to at least deal with orcs. So while Gondor may send small replenishing units of soldiers to garrison in Ithil, the length of the siege, and a potential off and on again nature would in time subdue it.

Yet another side to the location idea is that Ithil is not in Gondor proper. Historically, occupying armies have a very hard time holding a place their people may not care for, considering when it is outside of the homeland. What is there for Ithil to offer, besides as a bastion of defense? And with Sauron himself gone for so long (or at least not on Gondor's doorstep), there may not be enough concern to warrant funneling soldiers to Minas Ithil.

On the question raised by food supply: Barad-dur held out in a siege for seven years, if I recall correctly. Orcs need food too. So then, if a seven year siege can be enacted and maintained, and the defenders can resist it well enough, why not a two year siege at Minas Ithil? It would certainly have fewer mouths to feed.

Anyway, I'm probably ranting and may have gotten off-topic. So I shall retire.

Amras Oronar · 01-02-2007, 12:02 PM

Why not a 2 year siege? because all the armies the Witch King gathered were destroyed by a fractions of the Gondorian armie 30 years ago... no matter how small that pass is, Minas Ithil is a big city, and it seems very unlogical that the Witch King can get a army big enough to defeat Gondor, because why would he then have not gathered that troops in Angmar?

And about the motivation, Minas Ithil is still locatted on the Gondorian side of the mountains, it is defintly Gondor, and no matter how much it is on Gondor's border, it was a major city, it just wouldn't make sence that Gondor would just do practicly nothing to keep one of their major settlements...

CaptainofDespair · 01-02-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amras Oronar

Why not a 2 year siege? because all the armies the Witch King gathered were destroyed by a fractions of the Gondorian armie 30 years ago... no matter how small that pass is, Minas Ithil is a big city, and it seems very unlogical that the Witch King can get a army big enough to defeat Gondor, because why would he then have not gathered that troops in Angmar?

And about the motivation, Minas Ithil is still locatted on the Gondorian side of the mountains, it is defintly Gondor, and no matter how much it is on Gondor's border, it was a major city, it just wouldn't make sence that Gondor would just do practicly nothing to keep one of their major settlements...

Yes, but the Angmar armies appear to have been relatively self-sufficient. And it is logical that that would be the case, as Mordor is rather far from Angmar. To gather up troops and march them through hostile territory just to assemble them for a northern war would be a disaster. Also, any sighting of Mordor's armies marching north would give the Gondorians reason to assail and crush Sauron once again.

Ithil may indeed be 'Gondorian', but it does not reside in Gondor-proper. By that, I mean in the heartland, not the periphery of its territory. Logistically, it would be difficult when under siege to supply Ithil properly with enough troops and materials. While let-ups in the siege (which seemingly would have to occur based on the amount of time it took) would provide moments to re-supply and garrison the city, Gondor would not be able to effectively control the terrain as it would need to. The terrain easily obstructs such activity, giving the siegers a tactical advantage. And if the siegers can control the mountain passes effectively (and it could very well be done with a small number of troops), then that gives the Nazgul yet another hand up in victory (as well as the fear they themselves bring to the table).

Amras Oronar · 01-02-2007, 12:28 PM

Well as said before, Mordor at that time is to be discribed as 'Desolate' I think if there was a big host able to withstand Gondor's might, I think it might be described somewhat different.

And even if by the hand of suprise as well the Nazgul were having the advantage, there would just be no way Gondor would allow the Nazgul to take Minas Ithil. It was about there biggest city, even if the Nazgul would retrieve a small host from Mordor, it wouldn most certainly not be able to defeat all the might of Gondor, which it AF COURSE would use against a assualt upon one of there 3 biggest city's?

12-30-2006, 05:28 AM	#2
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	I think Farael got it. This is what I had in mind and so far it seems the best alternative, if no one comes up with anything better. It was not possible to bring an army of Easterlings through Ithilien since it remained settled for a long time after this, and also "they came out of Mordor through the pass of Cirith Ungol", and I doubt an army larger than Shagrat's squad could pass through Cirith Ungol. So I agree with Farael's explanation of the term "siege", and I also cannot help but remember the movie "Aliens" in connection with this - you know, a colony full of people, but when a recon team comes to find out why there has been no contact, they see only empty corridors... __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

01-02-2007, 05:43 AM	#3
Amras Oronar Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Zoetermeer Posts: 29	Well for a siege af course you do need a big army, certainly considering it must have beaten all reiforcements that Gondor send to defend Minas Ithil, which af course if it was a massive siege would have happened. Now after being beaten a few deccenia ago, the Witch King could not have gotten a army big enough to lay a siege upon Minas Ithil, it was simply immpossible. But af course it isn't immpossible that they have taken Minas Ithil, as explained in other posts they could have well taken Minas Ithil by haunting or something simulair. Now that leaves us with 2 options, or Tolkien misused the term 'Siege' or this is one of his very few mistakes/ subject he hadn't thought through.

01-02-2007, 09:44 AM	#4
CaptainofDespair Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 413	Hmm...an interesting subject. I think the discussion so far has neglected (unless I've missed it, which is quite possible) the effect of location. Minas Ithil is basically in Mordor, and the pass that it guards is rather narrow, giving those who sieze it a distinct advantage. Taking this into consideration, I think the term siege fits in quite well. The Nazgul, and whatever army they may have assembled over the course of time, could easily hold such a pass from any returning force of Gondor's while they are sieging it. A secondary idea to this is that the siege was not on-going in the sense of a constant pounding. With Mordor being 'desolate', I think that the siege could very well be off and on as the Nazgul and their army can manage it. Even if Gondor's army is in short supply of available troops, any force of them is enough to at least deal with orcs. So while Gondor may send small replenishing units of soldiers to garrison in Ithil, the length of the siege, and a potential off and on again nature would in time subdue it. Yet another side to the location idea is that Ithil is not in Gondor proper. Historically, occupying armies have a very hard time holding a place their people may not care for, considering when it is outside of the homeland. What is there for Ithil to offer, besides as a bastion of defense? And with Sauron himself gone for so long (or at least not on Gondor's doorstep), there may not be enough concern to warrant funneling soldiers to Minas Ithil. On the question raised by food supply: Barad-dur held out in a siege for seven years, if I recall correctly. Orcs need food too. So then, if a seven year siege can be enacted and maintained, and the defenders can resist it well enough, why not a two year siege at Minas Ithil? It would certainly have fewer mouths to feed. Anyway, I'm probably ranting and may have gotten off-topic. So I shall retire.

01-02-2007, 12:02 PM	#5
Amras Oronar Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Zoetermeer Posts: 29	Why not a 2 year siege? because all the armies the Witch King gathered were destroyed by a fractions of the Gondorian armie 30 years ago... no matter how small that pass is, Minas Ithil is a big city, and it seems very unlogical that the Witch King can get a army big enough to defeat Gondor, because why would he then have not gathered that troops in Angmar? And about the motivation, Minas Ithil is still locatted on the Gondorian side of the mountains, it is defintly Gondor, and no matter how much it is on Gondor's border, it was a major city, it just wouldn't make sence that Gondor would just do practicly nothing to keep one of their major settlements...

01-02-2007, 12:28 PM	#7
Amras Oronar Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Zoetermeer Posts: 29	Well as said before, Mordor at that time is to be discribed as 'Desolate' I think if there was a big host able to withstand Gondor's might, I think it might be described somewhat different. And even if by the hand of suprise as well the Nazgul were having the advantage, there would just be no way Gondor would allow the Nazgul to take Minas Ithil. It was about there biggest city, even if the Nazgul would retrieve a small host from Mordor, it wouldn most certainly not be able to defeat all the might of Gondor, which it AF COURSE would use against a assualt upon one of there 3 biggest city's?