Maybe it's just nonsense but... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 12-30-2006, 07:34 PM

Thanks for your enthusiastic replies, Mac and Legate!

I agree that the Old Testament is best seen as paralleling both First and Second Ages. Genesis and Exodus seem best to fit the First Age with their mythic wonders. Not that the mythic wonders end, but as soon as the priesthood and chosen nation themes are established in the latter part of Exodus, from thence until the end of the Old Testament, you are dealing with a more Second Age type of parallel.

The New Testament is a whole different kettle of fish and I don't know if or how it belongs in this discussion, so I'm going to dismiss it for now.

Worth adding to the Greek and Roman ship/sea cultures are the Phoenicians and their descendants, the Carthaginians.

I think that starting with the emergence of the Persians is a bit late, and would start things with the beginnings of Greek and Greek-like (Philistine for example) dominance; this would be roughly 1200 B.C., which does seem to be just a couple centuries after the Hebrew Exodus; and incidentally correponds with the onset of the Iron Age.

And I agree with the assignation of the end of the Kingdom of Arnor in the north as being reminiscent of the Dark Ages in Europe. In fact, come to think of it, all we have in Arnor at the end of the Third Age in Arnor, is the Shire and Bree and its surroundings. Dunland is a barbaric land. Rohan is on a par with early Germanic kingdoms in Europe. It would seem that the Shire and Bree are small outposts in an England that is not an island, seemingly like the time between the Germanic migrations and the Viking raids. So I'm rethinking that bit.

Check out Etymology On Line to satisfy your curiosity about words from time to time.

Quote:

culture
1440, "the tilling of land," from L. cultura, from pp. stem of colere "tend, guard, cultivate, till" (see cult). The figurative sense of "cultivation through education" is first attested 1510. Meaning "the intellectual side of civilization" is from 1805; that of "collective customs and achievements of a people" is from 1867.

"For without culture or holiness, which are always the gift of a very few, a man may renounce wealth or any other external thing, but he cannot renounce hatred, envy, jealousy, revenge. Culture is the sanctity of the intellect." [William Butler Yeats]

Quote:

cult
1617, "worship," also "a particular form of worship," from Fr. culte, from L. cultus "care, cultivation, worship," originally "tended, cultivated," pp. of colere "to till" (see colony). Rare after 17c.; revived mid-19c. with reference to ancient or primitive rituals. Meaning "devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829.

Formendacil · 12-30-2006, 09:58 PM

As a bit of an addendum, Tolkien himself makes the connection (I believe its in the Letters... somewhere...) about Gondor's Byzantine-like quality. The Middle Ages parallel is very appropriate: while Arnor and the Wilderland enter their dark ages, Gondor (Byzantium) reaches heights of great power, reminiscent of Númenor (Rome) of old.

Macalaure · 12-31-2006, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I think that starting with the emergence of the Persians is a bit late, and would start things with the beginnings of Greek and Greek-like (Philistine for example) dominance; this would be roughly 1200 B.C., which does seem to be just a couple centuries after the Hebrew Exodus; and incidentally correponds with the onset of the Iron Age.

I'm not sure I agree. Keep in mind that Iliad and Odyssey were written roundabout, I think, 800 B.C., and even though the Odyssey is already far less archaic, we agree to let them be part of the First Age. The early Greeks remind me a bit of the Easterlings, destroying the minoian Crete and being a constant thorn in the side of the Hittite empire. The parallel would be even more striking if historians would agree on whether the Sea Peoples were Greeks or not.
Even though the Greeks slowly emerged from 1200 B.C. on, this time was dominated by the Assyrians and Babylonians, whom I would keep in the first age.

I don't want to offend, but I think you might overemphasize the importance of ancient Israel. After all, most of the time it was conquered by somebody and its cultural and religious influence only came A.D.
That's why I saw the coming to power of the Persians so significant. Here, for the first time (if we ignore the short period of Echnaton in Egypt), a monotheistic culture is in a dominant position, even largely influencing the jewish religion.

Maybe we shouldn't try to match Middle-earth-ian history one-to-one to real history and just match eras to other eras, allowing gaps. We then could cut at 1200 B.C. or so and resume with the slow rise of Greek (after the Dorian migration/invasion) and Persian culture from around 800 B.C. on, letting them grow in time like the Númenorians, gradually founding colonies and then assume real power from around 500 B.C. on.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 12-31-2006, 03:34 AM

Good points about the Greek culture, Maca, I'm enjoying your observations. But before we move on, I have to react to what you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I don't want to offend, but I think you might overemphasize the importance of ancient Israel. After all, most of the time it was conquered by somebody and its cultural and religious influence only came A.D.

Indeed, I think I was speaking about in my previous post - look it up there. Israel was not important in the "global world politics", but it was important because of what it represented. As we know from the cases of Frodo&co., the smallest things can be of highest importance. Even when Israel was conquered by someone, something was happening down there. Israel was not important in the political sense, but in the human thinking overall. Between 900-200 BC, there was something that Karl Jaspers calls "the Axial Age". In several cultures the cultic era suddenly ends, we are not just in the time of repeating rites, in the mind of man, the time shapes into a line going from somewhere to something. Several nations are not just looking back to their myths, but they start to consider (and look up to) the future. This is, in my mind, the end of the "First Age". In Middle-Earth, this starts with Eärendil for me. The men (and elves) realize they are not doomed to the Dark Lord, their life is not just repeating circle of their works throughout the year until death, but they realize that there is some future, some expectations of the end. In our world we see it at the Greek philosophers, Lao'C, Buddha, and the Hebrew prophets. The ritual religion turns into a waiting for something - which is, I think, the best showing of "promise-fulfilment" schema of Númenor. For these nations, the First Age ends here. And also the important thing which this "Axial Age" represents is - in the same cultures - that breaking the ritual comes up with the emergence of ethics in human thinking. In these cultures, that what is called by Confucius "the Golden Rule", and what is called in Christianity "one of the two greatest commandments" emerges: "Do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you." The humanity does not accept it rightaway, but it begins here.
I think this is important as we were speaking of how the culture - "intellectual side of civilization"

-developed (as I supposed from elempi's first post), and the "ethical breaking" is very important for this.

Lalwendë · 12-31-2006, 05:13 AM

I think Middle-earth is Middle-earth and it doesn't really have very much correspondence to our own world; we'd be pushing it a bit to forge too many links. But you can have some fun with it, and indeed, some things seem to be clear comparisons. One of those might be the comparison with the development of Rohirric culture, who seem to be on the cusp of developing a literary culture similar to that of the Anglo-Saxons and the Norse.

I've heard a few arguments that you can compare the history of Middle-earth with the history of the British Isles. The broad gist is as follows:

First Age is like the early history of the islands, when they are still linked to the continent. This is when the founding races emerge as the Britons and people have free movement (akin to the free movement found in Beleriand and the wider lands of Middle-earth). Sea levels are lower, and there are many land bridges (as in Arda, there is the Helcaraxe linking Valinor and Beleriand); people can go west and return east and vice versa. Then the seas rise and the land is cut off, plus many lands are lost. I've heard claims that Middle-earth and Valinor are similar to Britain and Ireland.

Second Age sees the flowering of a great culture akin to Celtic culture, but which also brought seafaring 'empire builders' and expansionists from various tribes - Gaels, Picts, Scots, Belgae (like Black Numenoreans). At this time there is archaeological evidence that there were a number of great settlements to the west, a land mass stretching from Cornwall down to the Scillies, and Wales was larger. Possible origins of Lyonnesse and Atlantis myths? Also similar to the existence of Numenor as these were eventually lost to the sea.

Third Age brings more cultural shifts as the land mass settles into what we know of it today. Romans arrive and establish Romano-British cultures (Gondor?), as this fades it becomes more tribal and we enter the so-called Dark Ages (which weren't dark in Britain at any rate - we had King Arthur and all the early saints and yes, literature too - it's only the hegemony of Classical education that has us thinking those times were 'dark' just because Rome had fallen! Tch!). There are strong small nations such as Rheged and Elmet (similar to Rhudaur and Cardolan - if you look up the histories of these nations you could be forgiven for thinking Tolkien had taken his inspiration directly from them in creating the various feuds of Arnor), then we see other cultures arriving such as the Norse and Saxon (Rohirric). What's Mordor though? The Normans?

I've heard some interesting arguments that the whole of the history of Middle-earth is broadly concurrent with the mythical history of Ireland too. I suppose you can apply it in any way, given the immense scope of human history!

The main thing which shows us though that Middle-earth is not concurrent with human history is that in Tolkien's world there are simply not the big cultural differences over time that there are in genuine history. Culture (certainly if you look at the Elves and at Gondor) has shifted little over many thousands of years whereas in the real world it shifts dramatically. The only 'shifts' you get in Middle-earth is the emergence and dying out of cultures.

The Might · 12-31-2006, 09:29 AM

Wow...really good posts from everyone
I just wanted to add that the Great Plague that came over Gondor in the middle of the Third Age can be assosiciated with the Great Bubonic Plague of 1347-1353 in Europe that also had a devastating effect.
We can also take into account we are now in the beginning of the Seventh Age, as Tolkien himself said.
And it seems that each Age was ended by a quite important event...
I would say that the end of the Sixth Age was marked by both World Wars, which determined Tolkien to say we're at the beginning of the Seventh Age right now.
And the end of the Fifth would in my opinion be the Industrial Revolution...
But I can't think what the end of the Fourth would be...any ideas?

Lalwendë · 12-31-2006, 09:43 AM

I'm always a bit shaky with this idea that the ages of Middle-earth can correspond to our own. Mostly as 'ages' must be incredibly short in the modern age! If an age must be thousands of years in length then shouldn't those early Elves and Men have been living in caves and having a hunter-gatherer existence? Oh wait, is that what Menegroth was all about?

Anyway, if we're having a bit of fun speculating, I'll stick me concerns on one side and join in. I'd say the 7th Age began around the time of the Boer War, the first significantly mechanised and 'modern' war, and the world has pretty much never been at peace since then. This broadly corresponds with the dawning of the modern secular age, the age of technological discovery, emancipation, globalisation, the beginning of the end of Empire, mass education etc.

6th age - Maybe the age of 'enlightenment' beginning around the late 1700s, which brought in new ideas on philosophy, the all-important Romantic movement, the expansion of discovery into the age of empire, the industrial revolution, American revolution, French revolution, and the shift from rural life to urban life.

5th age - The Middle ages and into the Reformation and the main era of global exploration.

4th age - The early middle ages (note, NOT Dark Ages) which would include the development of new cultures Norse/Saxon (AKA Rohirric) leading into the cataclysmic Norman Conquest (bah) - that could equate to the return of Sauron or something! Eek!

12-30-2006, 09:58 PM	#2
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	As a bit of an addendum, Tolkien himself makes the connection (I believe its in the Letters... somewhere...) about Gondor's Byzantine-like quality. The Middle Ages parallel is very appropriate: while Arnor and the Wilderland enter their dark ages, Gondor (Byzantium) reaches heights of great power, reminiscent of Númenor (Rome) of old. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

12-31-2006, 05:13 AM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I think Middle-earth is Middle-earth and it doesn't really have very much correspondence to our own world; we'd be pushing it a bit to forge too many links. But you can have some fun with it, and indeed, some things seem to be clear comparisons. One of those might be the comparison with the development of Rohirric culture, who seem to be on the cusp of developing a literary culture similar to that of the Anglo-Saxons and the Norse. I've heard a few arguments that you can compare the history of Middle-earth with the history of the British Isles. The broad gist is as follows: First Age is like the early history of the islands, when they are still linked to the continent. This is when the founding races emerge as the Britons and people have free movement (akin to the free movement found in Beleriand and the wider lands of Middle-earth). Sea levels are lower, and there are many land bridges (as in Arda, there is the Helcaraxe linking Valinor and Beleriand); people can go west and return east and vice versa. Then the seas rise and the land is cut off, plus many lands are lost. I've heard claims that Middle-earth and Valinor are similar to Britain and Ireland. Second Age sees the flowering of a great culture akin to Celtic culture, but which also brought seafaring 'empire builders' and expansionists from various tribes - Gaels, Picts, Scots, Belgae (like Black Numenoreans). At this time there is archaeological evidence that there were a number of great settlements to the west, a land mass stretching from Cornwall down to the Scillies, and Wales was larger. Possible origins of Lyonnesse and Atlantis myths? Also similar to the existence of Numenor as these were eventually lost to the sea. Third Age brings more cultural shifts as the land mass settles into what we know of it today. Romans arrive and establish Romano-British cultures (Gondor?), as this fades it becomes more tribal and we enter the so-called Dark Ages (which weren't dark in Britain at any rate - we had King Arthur and all the early saints and yes, literature too - it's only the hegemony of Classical education that has us thinking those times were 'dark' just because Rome had fallen! Tch!). There are strong small nations such as Rheged and Elmet (similar to Rhudaur and Cardolan - if you look up the histories of these nations you could be forgiven for thinking Tolkien had taken his inspiration directly from them in creating the various feuds of Arnor), then we see other cultures arriving such as the Norse and Saxon (Rohirric). What's Mordor though? The Normans? I've heard some interesting arguments that the whole of the history of Middle-earth is broadly concurrent with the mythical history of Ireland too. I suppose you can apply it in any way, given the immense scope of human history! The main thing which shows us though that Middle-earth is not concurrent with human history is that in Tolkien's world there are simply not the big cultural differences over time that there are in genuine history. Culture (certainly if you look at the Elves and at Gondor) has shifted little over many thousands of years whereas in the real world it shifts dramatically. The only 'shifts' you get in Middle-earth is the emergence and dying out of cultures. __________________ Gordon's alive!

12-31-2006, 09:29 AM	#6
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Wow...really good posts from everyone I just wanted to add that the Great Plague that came over Gondor in the middle of the Third Age can be assosiciated with the Great Bubonic Plague of 1347-1353 in Europe that also had a devastating effect. We can also take into account we are now in the beginning of the Seventh Age, as Tolkien himself said. And it seems that each Age was ended by a quite important event... I would say that the end of the Sixth Age was marked by both World Wars, which determined Tolkien to say we're at the beginning of the Seventh Age right now. And the end of the Fifth would in my opinion be the Industrial Revolution... But I can't think what the end of the Fourth would be...any ideas? __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

12-31-2006, 09:43 AM	#7
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I'm always a bit shaky with this idea that the ages of Middle-earth can correspond to our own. Mostly as 'ages' must be incredibly short in the modern age! If an age must be thousands of years in length then shouldn't those early Elves and Men have been living in caves and having a hunter-gatherer existence? Oh wait, is that what Menegroth was all about? Anyway, if we're having a bit of fun speculating, I'll stick me concerns on one side and join in. I'd say the 7th Age began around the time of the Boer War, the first significantly mechanised and 'modern' war, and the world has pretty much never been at peace since then. This broadly corresponds with the dawning of the modern secular age, the age of technological discovery, emancipation, globalisation, the beginning of the end of Empire, mass education etc. 6th age - Maybe the age of 'enlightenment' beginning around the late 1700s, which brought in new ideas on philosophy, the all-important Romantic movement, the expansion of discovery into the age of empire, the industrial revolution, American revolution, French revolution, and the shift from rural life to urban life. 5th age - The Middle ages and into the Reformation and the main era of global exploration. 4th age - The early middle ages (note, NOT Dark Ages) which would include the development of new cultures Norse/Saxon (AKA Rohirric) leading into the cataclysmic Norman Conquest (bah) - that could equate to the return of Sauron or something! Eek! __________________ Gordon's alive! Last edited by Lalwendë; 12-31-2006 at 09:49 AM.