How could the Nazgul take Minas Morgul? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Amras Oronar · 01-02-2007, 05:43 AM

Well for a siege af course you do need a big army, certainly considering it must have beaten all reiforcements that Gondor send to defend Minas Ithil, which af course if it was a massive siege would have happened. Now after being beaten a few deccenia ago, the Witch King could not have gotten a army big enough to lay a siege upon Minas Ithil, it was simply immpossible.

But af course it isn't immpossible that they have taken Minas Ithil, as explained in other posts they could have well taken Minas Ithil by haunting or something simulair.

Now that leaves us with 2 options, or Tolkien misused the term 'Siege' or this is one of his very few mistakes/ subject he hadn't thought through.

CaptainofDespair · 01-02-2007, 09:44 AM

Hmm...an interesting subject.

I think the discussion so far has neglected (unless I've missed it, which is quite possible) the effect of location. Minas Ithil is basically in Mordor, and the pass that it guards is rather narrow, giving those who sieze it a distinct advantage. Taking this into consideration, I think the term siege fits in quite well. The Nazgul, and whatever army they may have assembled over the course of time, could easily hold such a pass from any returning force of Gondor's while they are sieging it.

A secondary idea to this is that the siege was not on-going in the sense of a constant pounding. With Mordor being 'desolate', I think that the siege could very well be off and on as the Nazgul and their army can manage it. Even if Gondor's army is in short supply of available troops, any force of them is enough to at least deal with orcs. So while Gondor may send small replenishing units of soldiers to garrison in Ithil, the length of the siege, and a potential off and on again nature would in time subdue it.

Yet another side to the location idea is that Ithil is not in Gondor proper. Historically, occupying armies have a very hard time holding a place their people may not care for, considering when it is outside of the homeland. What is there for Ithil to offer, besides as a bastion of defense? And with Sauron himself gone for so long (or at least not on Gondor's doorstep), there may not be enough concern to warrant funneling soldiers to Minas Ithil.

On the question raised by food supply: Barad-dur held out in a siege for seven years, if I recall correctly. Orcs need food too. So then, if a seven year siege can be enacted and maintained, and the defenders can resist it well enough, why not a two year siege at Minas Ithil? It would certainly have fewer mouths to feed.

Anyway, I'm probably ranting and may have gotten off-topic. So I shall retire.

Amras Oronar · 01-02-2007, 12:02 PM

Why not a 2 year siege? because all the armies the Witch King gathered were destroyed by a fractions of the Gondorian armie 30 years ago... no matter how small that pass is, Minas Ithil is a big city, and it seems very unlogical that the Witch King can get a army big enough to defeat Gondor, because why would he then have not gathered that troops in Angmar?

And about the motivation, Minas Ithil is still locatted on the Gondorian side of the mountains, it is defintly Gondor, and no matter how much it is on Gondor's border, it was a major city, it just wouldn't make sence that Gondor would just do practicly nothing to keep one of their major settlements...

CaptainofDespair · 01-02-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amras Oronar

Why not a 2 year siege? because all the armies the Witch King gathered were destroyed by a fractions of the Gondorian armie 30 years ago... no matter how small that pass is, Minas Ithil is a big city, and it seems very unlogical that the Witch King can get a army big enough to defeat Gondor, because why would he then have not gathered that troops in Angmar?

And about the motivation, Minas Ithil is still locatted on the Gondorian side of the mountains, it is defintly Gondor, and no matter how much it is on Gondor's border, it was a major city, it just wouldn't make sence that Gondor would just do practicly nothing to keep one of their major settlements...

Yes, but the Angmar armies appear to have been relatively self-sufficient. And it is logical that that would be the case, as Mordor is rather far from Angmar. To gather up troops and march them through hostile territory just to assemble them for a northern war would be a disaster. Also, any sighting of Mordor's armies marching north would give the Gondorians reason to assail and crush Sauron once again.

Ithil may indeed be 'Gondorian', but it does not reside in Gondor-proper. By that, I mean in the heartland, not the periphery of its territory. Logistically, it would be difficult when under siege to supply Ithil properly with enough troops and materials. While let-ups in the siege (which seemingly would have to occur based on the amount of time it took) would provide moments to re-supply and garrison the city, Gondor would not be able to effectively control the terrain as it would need to. The terrain easily obstructs such activity, giving the siegers a tactical advantage. And if the siegers can control the mountain passes effectively (and it could very well be done with a small number of troops), then that gives the Nazgul yet another hand up in victory (as well as the fear they themselves bring to the table).

Amras Oronar · 01-02-2007, 12:28 PM

Well as said before, Mordor at that time is to be discribed as 'Desolate' I think if there was a big host able to withstand Gondor's might, I think it might be described somewhat different.

And even if by the hand of suprise as well the Nazgul were having the advantage, there would just be no way Gondor would allow the Nazgul to take Minas Ithil. It was about there biggest city, even if the Nazgul would retrieve a small host from Mordor, it wouldn most certainly not be able to defeat all the might of Gondor, which it AF COURSE would use against a assualt upon one of there 3 biggest city's?

CaptainofDespair · 01-02-2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amras Oronar

Well as said before, Mordor at that time is to be discribed as 'Desolate' I think if there was a big host able to withstand Gondor's might, I think it might be described somewhat different.

And even if by the hand of suprise as well the Nazgul were having the advantage, there would just be no way Gondor would allow the Nazgul to take Minas Ithil. It was about there biggest city, even if the Nazgul would retrieve a small host from Mordor, it wouldn most certainly not be able to defeat all the might of Gondor, which it AF COURSE would use against a assualt upon one of there 3 biggest city's?

I'm not saying the Mordorian forces were large. I am only saying that any force of orcs, no matter the size, would be able, under the competent commanding of the Witch-King, to hold a small piece of terrain and maintain a long siege. Due to the distance from Gondor, and having to cross Osgiliath and march into mountains that are less than pleasant, it becomes increasingly more difficult for Minas Tirith to direct a war against the besieging forces of the Nazgul, who are more at home in the terrain, as would be their troops.

And Gondor (as in the King) may very well would not want to lose or give up Ithil. But that is irrelevant if they could not do anything. And while Gondorian armies may have helped smash Angmar thirty years earlier, that was thirty years earlier. A lot can happen to a kingdom and its armies in that amount of time.

Farael · 01-02-2007, 03:21 PM

CaptainOfDespair you bring an interesting point to the argument, but I don't believe that Gondor would have given up Minas Ithil because it was far from the Gondorian mainland. We can all agree that Ilithien was part of "Gondor Proper"... Not to mention Osgiliath. Yet between Mordor and Minas Tirith there were no strong points, or fortresses, other than Minas Ithil. To hold Minas Ithil meant to have the upper hand in controling Ilithien and the roads to Osgiliath, to loose it was to give the upper hand to the forces of Mordor (as it wound up happening).

While it is a good point that Minas Ithil was amidst a desolate land in the far end of the land of Gondor, it was guarding a very rich land, and one of Gondor's main cities, so I don't think how any half-competent ruler would have given up Minas Ithil freely.

Furthermore, the assambling of even a small army of orcs (or evil men or any other living creature for that matter) was also complicated by the fact that, as mentioned many times before, armies need food. As far as I know, at that time Mordor was fairly empty, so I am guessing that the fields by the sea of Rhun were either inhabited or the few orcs or humans there were concerned with their own survival to send food to an army camped at the mountain passes.

01-02-2007, 03:21 PM	#7
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	CaptainOfDespair you bring an interesting point to the argument, but I don't believe that Gondor would have given up Minas Ithil because it was far from the Gondorian mainland. We can all agree that Ilithien was part of "Gondor Proper"... Not to mention Osgiliath. Yet between Mordor and Minas Tirith there were no strong points, or fortresses, other than Minas Ithil. To hold Minas Ithil meant to have the upper hand in controling Ilithien and the roads to Osgiliath, to loose it was to give the upper hand to the forces of Mordor (as it wound up happening). While it is a good point that Minas Ithil was amidst a desolate land in the far end of the land of Gondor, it was guarding a very rich land, and one of Gondor's main cities, so I don't think how any half-competent ruler would have given up Minas Ithil freely. Furthermore, the assambling of even a small army of orcs (or evil men or any other living creature for that matter) was also complicated by the fact that, as mentioned many times before, armies need food. As far as I know, at that time Mordor was fairly empty, so I am guessing that the fields by the sea of Rhun were either inhabited or the few orcs or humans there were concerned with their own survival to send food to an army camped at the mountain passes. __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

01-02-2007, 05:43 AM	#1
Amras Oronar Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Zoetermeer Posts: 29	Well for a siege af course you do need a big army, certainly considering it must have beaten all reiforcements that Gondor send to defend Minas Ithil, which af course if it was a massive siege would have happened. Now after being beaten a few deccenia ago, the Witch King could not have gotten a army big enough to lay a siege upon Minas Ithil, it was simply immpossible. But af course it isn't immpossible that they have taken Minas Ithil, as explained in other posts they could have well taken Minas Ithil by haunting or something simulair. Now that leaves us with 2 options, or Tolkien misused the term 'Siege' or this is one of his very few mistakes/ subject he hadn't thought through.

01-02-2007, 09:44 AM	#2
CaptainofDespair Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 413	Hmm...an interesting subject. I think the discussion so far has neglected (unless I've missed it, which is quite possible) the effect of location. Minas Ithil is basically in Mordor, and the pass that it guards is rather narrow, giving those who sieze it a distinct advantage. Taking this into consideration, I think the term siege fits in quite well. The Nazgul, and whatever army they may have assembled over the course of time, could easily hold such a pass from any returning force of Gondor's while they are sieging it. A secondary idea to this is that the siege was not on-going in the sense of a constant pounding. With Mordor being 'desolate', I think that the siege could very well be off and on as the Nazgul and their army can manage it. Even if Gondor's army is in short supply of available troops, any force of them is enough to at least deal with orcs. So while Gondor may send small replenishing units of soldiers to garrison in Ithil, the length of the siege, and a potential off and on again nature would in time subdue it. Yet another side to the location idea is that Ithil is not in Gondor proper. Historically, occupying armies have a very hard time holding a place their people may not care for, considering when it is outside of the homeland. What is there for Ithil to offer, besides as a bastion of defense? And with Sauron himself gone for so long (or at least not on Gondor's doorstep), there may not be enough concern to warrant funneling soldiers to Minas Ithil. On the question raised by food supply: Barad-dur held out in a siege for seven years, if I recall correctly. Orcs need food too. So then, if a seven year siege can be enacted and maintained, and the defenders can resist it well enough, why not a two year siege at Minas Ithil? It would certainly have fewer mouths to feed. Anyway, I'm probably ranting and may have gotten off-topic. So I shall retire.

01-02-2007, 12:02 PM	#3
Amras Oronar Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Zoetermeer Posts: 29	Why not a 2 year siege? because all the armies the Witch King gathered were destroyed by a fractions of the Gondorian armie 30 years ago... no matter how small that pass is, Minas Ithil is a big city, and it seems very unlogical that the Witch King can get a army big enough to defeat Gondor, because why would he then have not gathered that troops in Angmar? And about the motivation, Minas Ithil is still locatted on the Gondorian side of the mountains, it is defintly Gondor, and no matter how much it is on Gondor's border, it was a major city, it just wouldn't make sence that Gondor would just do practicly nothing to keep one of their major settlements...

01-02-2007, 12:28 PM	#5
Amras Oronar Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Zoetermeer Posts: 29	Well as said before, Mordor at that time is to be discribed as 'Desolate' I think if there was a big host able to withstand Gondor's might, I think it might be described somewhat different. And even if by the hand of suprise as well the Nazgul were having the advantage, there would just be no way Gondor would allow the Nazgul to take Minas Ithil. It was about there biggest city, even if the Nazgul would retrieve a small host from Mordor, it wouldn most certainly not be able to defeat all the might of Gondor, which it AF COURSE would use against a assualt upon one of there 3 biggest city's?