Matriarchal or Patriarchal societies in ME ???

[The Might]

Very interesting posts, and also very interesting quotes

I liked the point made about the spiders being the perhaps only entirely matriarchal society, and I believe this is quite possible

As far as Easterling or Southron communities are concerned I am quite sure that they have a fully patriarchal society. Because of a less developed society I would expect that womed had less rights in the east and south then in the more advanced north-west part of Middle-earth.
The same would go in my opinion for others such as the Beornings, the Woodmen, the Woses or the Lossoth.

Varda however seems to be viewed as a type of matriarch by Elves and worshiped for kindling the stars in the sky.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Might

As far as Easterling or Southron communities are concerned I am quite sure that they have a fully patriarchal society. Because of a less developed society I would expect that womed had less rights in the east and south then in the more advanced north-west part of Middle-earth.
The same would go in my opinion for others such as the Beornings, the Woodmen, the Woses or the Lossoth.

But is it appropriate to think of the Easterlings and Southrons as having a less developed society, or that the north-west part of Middle-earth is more 'advanced'?

And about Varda, is there a relationship between worship of a female god and matriarchial societies? There is archeological evidence of goddesses being supplanted by montheism, but I'm not sure what the social organisation was of those socieities.

And about Galadriel and Celeborn, it is interesting that while she sails west we are not told definitely when Celeborn leaves (I hope I am remembering that correctly. I haven't reread LotR in some time).

[The Might]

just wanted to make a small explanation: by Varda I do not want to imply that Elves had a matriarchal society just because they worshiped here, but that this kind of praise to a female shows they were not afraid or unwilling to accept females as leaders or as higher powers

as far as as the Easterlings and Southrons are concerned, I believe the fact they were under Sauron's control for so long is a reason why they could not develop
Gondor on the other hand benefited from its legacy dating back to the Second Age, and Rohan had definitely learned much from Gondor

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

just wanted to make a small explanation: by Varda I do not want to imply that Elves had a matriarchal society just because they worshiped here, but that this kind of praise to a female shows they were not afraid or unwilling to accept females as leaders or as higher powers

Of course not, and you could not have gone this far, we have all these mentioned Galadriels and Melians who show it rather well. This is just the same - but again, Varda is not taken as, as you say, leader. This is the difference: to admire someone or to praise them might not necessarily mean that you accept them as your superiors. Although also we can see it vice versa... (okay, I think we might stop it, since this is not a political discussion thread)

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And about Galadriel and Celeborn, it is interesting that while she sails west we are not told definitely when Celeborn leaves (I hope I am remembering that correctly. I haven't reread LotR in some time).

Actually, that is the strangest part of it. Galadriel sails with the Ringbearers, but we have no word about Celeborn. We are told that

But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond.

This is, I think, the last we know about his fate. Anyone else has anything more to add?

P.S. And I apologize for one misquotation I made in one of my previous posts. I am saying there that Celeborn destroys Dol Guldur - to be precise, according to the Appendix B, Celeborn takes the army, but Galadriel breaks down the walls of Dol Guldur (possibly after the forces are defeated, as an act of "un-unhallowing" the place).

[Lalaith]

This was a social attitude which Elizabeth I constantly had to face and work with, if I recall my history correctly

And it is of course ironic that England has arguably never been greater than when ruled by Queens...Elizabeth I and Victoria....you'll forgive me if I don't extend the analogy to Mrs T...ahem....back to Tolkien.
Yes, I was always under the impression that Galadriel had been pivotal in the storming of Dol Guldor. And I always wondered exactly what her role had been. She certainly argued against Saruman who favoured pusillanimity.

[The Might]

this act of bringing down its walls is similar to Luthien destroying Tol Sirion during the Quenta Silmarillion
it doesn't necessarily mean that she took place in the battle, but that is possible as well, I do not think she would stay at home and wait for Celeborn to come and tell her all the Orcs are dead and that she can go break down the walls
I personally think she did before the battle actually began