How could the Nazgul take Minas Morgul?

[Wayland]

Originally Posted by FeRaL sHaDoW

I think i have read somewhere that the Nazgul have some power to influence or take control of people. Couldent they just turn the city people agaisnt them selves. Then in the end wouldent the nazguls just have to walk in.

Good point. Whatever mechanics were employed outside, an equally important process of demoralisation, corruption and treachery was doubtlessly occurring within. We need only to look at Sauruman, Denethor and Theoden to see how good men, in Tolkein’s world, are almost imperceptibly brought down.
No doubt the end was ushered in by some small gate opened by the hands of a traitor in the dead of night, some poor orders from the captains and downright self-serving foolery or cowardice by others.
Would it not be in character to speculate that the place was as much ‘lost’ by those entrusted with its defence as it was ‘taken’ by those who wanted it?

[Kuruharan]

Guerilla fighters are not entirely self-sufficient. They often resort to using a sympathetic populace to feed them when they are on the move.

You are not taking the circumstances of the situation into account.

There was no "sympathetic" population for the orcs to impress and gain supplies from. There were targets to be scared and killed. Orcs were good at scaring and killing.

Raiding is very much a piece of guerilla warfare, but it is not the entire puzzle. This sort of activity can be engaged in by traditional armies, and actually is quite often.

Which is what I was talking about. Besides, are not orcs frequently spoken of ambushing people?

The Nazgul, too, I do not see being very good at guerilla warfare. It is rather difficult for them, it would seem, to engage in it effectively with their...unique...physical properties.

Would you care to explain why?

I think they would be uniquely suited to it because creating terror was what they did best.

Unless I am mistaken, I thought there was an entry in regards to the orcs and Easterlings, and their hatred of one another.

I can't remember reading anything like that. While I doubt that the orcs and Easterlings liked each other very much, they would definitely been on the same side.

Cite sources of where the Witch-King, as a military commander, chooses subtler methods over his favored option of traditional combat.

He tricked Earnur.

Treachery does not have to come in accord with the Enemy's plans. Such things can happen rather randomly, as an act of good fortune for the besiegers...by, in WW terms, a Cobbler type person. Thus, is not a clear indication of any subtle tactics being exercised.

True, but the other side of that coin is at least as likely. I don't think there is any fodder for either side to gain from this issue.

Thus, he could very well have had an advantage in numbers.

And where did these troops come from and how were they supported? Up to this point you've failed to give an adequate explanation for this.

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

He tricked Earnur.

I would consider that more like taunting him into performing a foolish action. He never truly tricked him. Earnur was stupid enough to think he might actually get a fair fight.

And where did these troops come from and how were they supported? Up to this point you've failed to give an adequate explanation for this.

And I disagree with you there. I think I have given adequate explanation, and that you are just requiring an immense degree of evidence for support. And I do not see you requiring the same of your own side of the argument.

In any case...Parts of Mordor, Rhun, and Harad could provide both troops and supplies. Anywhere that Sauron might have held some sway. They can be supported entirely by traditional means via supply lines reaching into Rhun and Harad, and maybe Nurn. And if Mordor is so "desolate", there are not many bandits to worry about in that last leg of the journey. The only part that must be secured is the Rhun area, and by simply sending shipments with reinforcement contingents or using outposts as waypoints they could easily transport the needed supplies to the Ithil besiegers.

There was no "sympathetic" population for the orcs to impress and gain supplies from. There were targets to be scared and killed. Orcs were good at scaring and killing.

Exactly my point. Which is why I think guerilla warfare is not a viable option. That type of warfare has many different factors that extend beyond simply 'scaring' and 'killing'. Orcs are best suited for the traditional army type, which more than allows for the raiding that they would enjoy.

I can't remember reading anything like that. While I doubt that the orcs and Easterlings liked each other very much, they would definitely been on the same side.

We have seen that orcs go after one another when from different 'tribes', and even amongst singular tribes they in-fight. And that comes during times of war, as well. Thus it is entirely plausible that they would attack Easterlings, and vice versa, if tempers boil over. And they certainly would in such a situation of duress.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally Posted by FeRaL sHaDoW
I think i have read somewhere that the Nazgul have some power to influence or take control of people. Couldent they just turn the city people agaisnt them selves. Then in the end wouldent the nazguls just have to walk in.

Good point. Whatever mechanics were employed outside, an equally important process of demoralisation, corruption and treachery was doubtlessly occurring within. We need only to look at Sauruman, Denethor and Theoden to see how good men, in Tolkein’s world, are almost imperceptibly brought down.
No doubt the end was ushered in by some small gate opened by the hands of a traitor in the dead of night, some poor orders from the captains and downright self-serving foolery or cowardice by others.
Would it not be in character to speculate that the place was as much ‘lost’ by those entrusted with its defence as it was ‘taken’ by those who wanted it?

What I like about this suggestion is that it gives a
reasonable explanation of how the palantir was captured. If
the fortress was captured by stealth then the palantir would have been
valuable as a communication device with Minas Tirith for the
Gondorians who, presumably, did not think that their fortress
was in iminent danger of being lost.

[Kuruharan]

I would consider that more like taunting him into performing a foolish action. He never truly tricked him. Earnur was stupid enough to think he might actually get a fair fight.

The principle I was articulating is the same.

“Insult the enemy with subtlety where and when you can insult him; degrade him where you can degrade. Offer fool’s bait and entice him to display his stupidity.”
The Art of War, Chapter I

And I do not see you requiring the same of your own side of the argument.

Specify on what is unclear and I will expound at length, believe me.

And if Mordor is so "desolate", there are not many bandits to worry about in that last leg of the journey.

I agree with you there. I don’t think bandits would have been a big problem in Mordor.

The only part that must be secured is the Rhun area, and by simply sending shipments with reinforcement contingents or using outposts as waypoints they could easily transport the needed supplies to the Ithil besiegers.

Again, this is a loooong supply line compared to the one the Gondorians had to use.

Exactly my point. Which is why I think guerilla warfare is not a viable option. That type of warfare has many different factors that extend beyond simply 'scaring' and 'killing'. Orcs are best suited for the traditional army type, which more than allows for the raiding that they would enjoy.

I believe you are attempting to create a straw man here.

We have seen that orcs go after one another when from different 'tribes', and even amongst singular tribes they in-fight. And that comes during times of war, as well. Thus it is entirely plausible that they would attack Easterlings, and vice versa, if tempers boil over. And they certainly would in such a situation of duress.

You do realize that by saying this you are making an even stronger case for the side of the argument that says that the Gondorians could have overrun the pass in a straight military encounter (particularly that bit about “under duress.”)

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Again, this is a loooong supply line compared to the one the Gondorians had to use.

But if the supply line goes unhindered for the most part, it is no problem to constantly ship things along it. Napoleon mananged to have couriers, at various points, reporting daily from France when he was moving into and through Russia. Although his situation deteriorated rapidly as it progressed, the Nazgul would not be faced with the Russians...or their winter. And their distance to send supplies along is not so great as that.

Thus, if the supplies are readily available and in fairly constant transport for the most part, the distance, so long as it goes unimpeded, is not much of a problem. I would think the Gondorians might have more difficulties having to haul things over the Anduin, while worrying about potential raids on the shipments from orcs and other baddies.

You do realize that by saying this you are making an even stronger case for the side of the argument that says that the Gondorians could have overrun the pass in a straight military encounter (particularly that bit about “under duress.”)

History is full of interesting moments like that, where the one side does not act (or in some cases does act) at a time when they could easily achieve victory. This, it seems, often leads to defeat for those who do not act (Archduke Karl waiting against an isolated Napoleon outside Vienna, allowing reinforcements to arrive).

Dissension would not be tolerated by the Nazgul, who would put things into line. But since the Nazgul must worry of their personal safety they would not go off on guerilla affairs for fear of being surrounded and outnumbered. Yet, at the same time, keeping the troops in line requires their presence. The only way to keep the various groups in line is to force them to by being constantly around, and that requires mass supervision.

While they could have the orcs and Easterlings act only amongst their own, they must also worry of another factor. Guerilla attacks on cities/outposts/forts require timed assaults by various units working in consort. Distraction and division are some of the best tactics for these fighters. But if the groups involved truly do not like each other, and would rather see the other dead, they may very well not attack at the designated point. The Nazgul would need to prevent this, but there are only nine of them, and thus they cannot be everywhere. Factor in that the Witch-King seemingly doesn't go into the field himself until he feels he has mostly won the day, and you have eight available for baby-sitting duty.

Thus, based on the potential fractured relations of the groups involved, it would be easiest, methinks, to keep them together in large contingents that are more easily managed by the few Nazgul.

I feel as if I am becoming incoherent...possibly from ranting. I shall end this post here before something goes amiss in my brain.

[Kuruharan]

But if the supply line goes unhindered for the most part, it is no problem to constantly ship things along it.

Unhindered by sentient beings does not mean totally unhindered. Broken transports, weather delays, the necessity of feeding the ones doing the transporting, rock slides, mud volcanoes...these problems become more inevitable and substantial with every mile you have to cross.

Let's take the time to look carefully at the map.

In an act of generosity on my part, we'll say that there are sufficient settlements just to the east of the Sea of Rhun, that is a distance of at least 600 miles.

The distance from Minas Tirith to Minas Ithil is about 45 miles.

Are you starting to see where we are coming from here?

I would think the Gondorians might have more difficulties having to haul things over the Anduin, while worrying about potential raids on the shipments from orcs and other baddies.

Nonsense. It was their river and they were a river people.

As for orcs and other baddies, there were no orcs or other baddies in that particular area at the time. That is part of why we are finding it so hard to accept that the Witch-king just created an army out of nothing and then laid siege for two years unopposed.