How could the Nazgul take Minas Morgul?

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

He tricked Earnur.

I would consider that more like taunting him into performing a foolish action. He never truly tricked him. Earnur was stupid enough to think he might actually get a fair fight.

And where did these troops come from and how were they supported? Up to this point you've failed to give an adequate explanation for this.

And I disagree with you there. I think I have given adequate explanation, and that you are just requiring an immense degree of evidence for support. And I do not see you requiring the same of your own side of the argument.

In any case...Parts of Mordor, Rhun, and Harad could provide both troops and supplies. Anywhere that Sauron might have held some sway. They can be supported entirely by traditional means via supply lines reaching into Rhun and Harad, and maybe Nurn. And if Mordor is so "desolate", there are not many bandits to worry about in that last leg of the journey. The only part that must be secured is the Rhun area, and by simply sending shipments with reinforcement contingents or using outposts as waypoints they could easily transport the needed supplies to the Ithil besiegers.

There was no "sympathetic" population for the orcs to impress and gain supplies from. There were targets to be scared and killed. Orcs were good at scaring and killing.

Exactly my point. Which is why I think guerilla warfare is not a viable option. That type of warfare has many different factors that extend beyond simply 'scaring' and 'killing'. Orcs are best suited for the traditional army type, which more than allows for the raiding that they would enjoy.

I can't remember reading anything like that. While I doubt that the orcs and Easterlings liked each other very much, they would definitely been on the same side.

We have seen that orcs go after one another when from different 'tribes', and even amongst singular tribes they in-fight. And that comes during times of war, as well. Thus it is entirely plausible that they would attack Easterlings, and vice versa, if tempers boil over. And they certainly would in such a situation of duress.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally Posted by FeRaL sHaDoW
I think i have read somewhere that the Nazgul have some power to influence or take control of people. Couldent they just turn the city people agaisnt them selves. Then in the end wouldent the nazguls just have to walk in.

Good point. Whatever mechanics were employed outside, an equally important process of demoralisation, corruption and treachery was doubtlessly occurring within. We need only to look at Sauruman, Denethor and Theoden to see how good men, in Tolkein’s world, are almost imperceptibly brought down.
No doubt the end was ushered in by some small gate opened by the hands of a traitor in the dead of night, some poor orders from the captains and downright self-serving foolery or cowardice by others.
Would it not be in character to speculate that the place was as much ‘lost’ by those entrusted with its defence as it was ‘taken’ by those who wanted it?

What I like about this suggestion is that it gives a
reasonable explanation of how the palantir was captured. If
the fortress was captured by stealth then the palantir would have been
valuable as a communication device with Minas Tirith for the
Gondorians who, presumably, did not think that their fortress
was in iminent danger of being lost.

[Kuruharan]

I would consider that more like taunting him into performing a foolish action. He never truly tricked him. Earnur was stupid enough to think he might actually get a fair fight.

The principle I was articulating is the same.

“Insult the enemy with subtlety where and when you can insult him; degrade him where you can degrade. Offer fool’s bait and entice him to display his stupidity.”
The Art of War, Chapter I

And I do not see you requiring the same of your own side of the argument.

Specify on what is unclear and I will expound at length, believe me.

And if Mordor is so "desolate", there are not many bandits to worry about in that last leg of the journey.

I agree with you there. I don’t think bandits would have been a big problem in Mordor.

The only part that must be secured is the Rhun area, and by simply sending shipments with reinforcement contingents or using outposts as waypoints they could easily transport the needed supplies to the Ithil besiegers.

Again, this is a loooong supply line compared to the one the Gondorians had to use.

Exactly my point. Which is why I think guerilla warfare is not a viable option. That type of warfare has many different factors that extend beyond simply 'scaring' and 'killing'. Orcs are best suited for the traditional army type, which more than allows for the raiding that they would enjoy.

I believe you are attempting to create a straw man here.

We have seen that orcs go after one another when from different 'tribes', and even amongst singular tribes they in-fight. And that comes during times of war, as well. Thus it is entirely plausible that they would attack Easterlings, and vice versa, if tempers boil over. And they certainly would in such a situation of duress.

You do realize that by saying this you are making an even stronger case for the side of the argument that says that the Gondorians could have overrun the pass in a straight military encounter (particularly that bit about “under duress.”)

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Again, this is a loooong supply line compared to the one the Gondorians had to use.

But if the supply line goes unhindered for the most part, it is no problem to constantly ship things along it. Napoleon mananged to have couriers, at various points, reporting daily from France when he was moving into and through Russia. Although his situation deteriorated rapidly as it progressed, the Nazgul would not be faced with the Russians...or their winter. And their distance to send supplies along is not so great as that.

Thus, if the supplies are readily available and in fairly constant transport for the most part, the distance, so long as it goes unimpeded, is not much of a problem. I would think the Gondorians might have more difficulties having to haul things over the Anduin, while worrying about potential raids on the shipments from orcs and other baddies.

You do realize that by saying this you are making an even stronger case for the side of the argument that says that the Gondorians could have overrun the pass in a straight military encounter (particularly that bit about “under duress.”)

History is full of interesting moments like that, where the one side does not act (or in some cases does act) at a time when they could easily achieve victory. This, it seems, often leads to defeat for those who do not act (Archduke Karl waiting against an isolated Napoleon outside Vienna, allowing reinforcements to arrive).

Dissension would not be tolerated by the Nazgul, who would put things into line. But since the Nazgul must worry of their personal safety they would not go off on guerilla affairs for fear of being surrounded and outnumbered. Yet, at the same time, keeping the troops in line requires their presence. The only way to keep the various groups in line is to force them to by being constantly around, and that requires mass supervision.

While they could have the orcs and Easterlings act only amongst their own, they must also worry of another factor. Guerilla attacks on cities/outposts/forts require timed assaults by various units working in consort. Distraction and division are some of the best tactics for these fighters. But if the groups involved truly do not like each other, and would rather see the other dead, they may very well not attack at the designated point. The Nazgul would need to prevent this, but there are only nine of them, and thus they cannot be everywhere. Factor in that the Witch-King seemingly doesn't go into the field himself until he feels he has mostly won the day, and you have eight available for baby-sitting duty.

Thus, based on the potential fractured relations of the groups involved, it would be easiest, methinks, to keep them together in large contingents that are more easily managed by the few Nazgul.

I feel as if I am becoming incoherent...possibly from ranting. I shall end this post here before something goes amiss in my brain.

[Kuruharan]

But if the supply line goes unhindered for the most part, it is no problem to constantly ship things along it.

Unhindered by sentient beings does not mean totally unhindered. Broken transports, weather delays, the necessity of feeding the ones doing the transporting, rock slides, mud volcanoes...these problems become more inevitable and substantial with every mile you have to cross.

Let's take the time to look carefully at the map.

In an act of generosity on my part, we'll say that there are sufficient settlements just to the east of the Sea of Rhun, that is a distance of at least 600 miles.

The distance from Minas Tirith to Minas Ithil is about 45 miles.

Are you starting to see where we are coming from here?

I would think the Gondorians might have more difficulties having to haul things over the Anduin, while worrying about potential raids on the shipments from orcs and other baddies.

Nonsense. It was their river and they were a river people.

As for orcs and other baddies, there were no orcs or other baddies in that particular area at the time. That is part of why we are finding it so hard to accept that the Witch-king just created an army out of nothing and then laid siege for two years unopposed.

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Are you starting to see where we are coming from here?

No. You offered very little support for your own argument. I do not think that you can support the idea of a 'Haunting' without going into the unreasonable.

Nonsense. It was their river and they were a river people.

As for orcs and other baddies, there were no orcs or other baddies in that particular area at the time. That is part of why we are finding it so hard to accept that the Witch-king just created an army out of nothing and then laid siege for two years unopposed.

Just because they are a river people does not mean there are inherent difficulties in hauling supplies over water. The relatively dry lands of Rhun are more easily crossed in general.

I will not say that weather and terrain problems cannot cause problems, but I find it highly unlikely that they could not be fixed. And especially by a people like the Easterlings, who would most likely be able to cope with such set-backs. Rhun is vast, as is Mordor. It would not be hard to..."go around"...the obstacles.

As for there being no orcs or other baddies:

I'm not saying they were naturally there. Once the siege starts, the Witch-King could easily dispatch units to the periphery of his theater of war to way-lay the Gondorians who would be attempting to reach Ithil. And if the Haradrim are part of this, all the easier to acquire good troops for this sort of action, as well as any supplies they bring to the table.

And really, if you think that I'm saying that the Wiki created an army out of nothing and laid siege unopposed, you have not been reading what I'm posting. If that is the case, then it may be useless to debate this further.

I have never said that the Wiki created an army out of nothing, nor that he went unopposed. Easterlings, Haradrim, orcs...they do have other homes than just Mordor. It's not hard to see the Witch-King or Khamul conscripting these groups into combat. What I find hard to believe is that anyone would think that the Witch-King went into this without planning this out ahead of time.

The Witch-King certainly would not have gone unopposed at Ithil. The Gondorians would send troops. But, without any proper intelligence coming out of the city, it would be very difficult to gauge the strength of the enemy force. Thus, at least for the first few months, the Gondorians may not have had the intelligence they needed to field a force capable of defeating the Witch-King. Another factor is that the King and his commanders may have felt Ithil might not be the full attack. Being the defender, they could not afford to make a mistake that could not only lose Ithil, but other important fortresses. While such a situation may not have happened, they would have to plan for it. Thus, they could not send the fullness of their might against the Wiki. Just one of many potential factors that may have hindered Gondor's response to the Ithil situation.

Now, if you continue to misinterpret my posts, then you may consider yourself alone in continuing this discussion.

[Kuruharan]

No. You offered very little support for your own argument.

I'm terribly sorry, but I don't understand what else there is to say in support of the argument about the supply lines. I find that, according to your theory, the Witch-king's were impossibly long. Compared to this the Gondorian were very short. These considerations weigh heavily against the idea that this encounter was a conventional siege.

Just because they are a river people does not mean there are inherent difficulties in hauling supplies over water.

One other point you might want to consider is that the river was still bridged at this point.

The relatively dry lands of Rhun are more easily crossed in general.

For every mile an army’s supplies must cross the “teeth to tail” ratio becomes ever more heavily weighted to tail. I think that even the process of moving the supplies across to Minas Ithil from Rhun would have been prohibitive in terms of manpower, especially if you are envisioning the supplies arriving on a frequent basis.

I will not say that weather and terrain problems cannot cause problems, but I find it highly unlikely that they could not be fixed. And especially by a people like the Easterlings, who would most likely be able to cope with such set-backs.

Yes, the Easterlings being the great pioneers in weather-control and terraforming technologies.

Rhun is vast, as is Mordor. It would not be hard to..."go around"...the obstacles.

Adding to the amount of time it would take the supplies to get where they are going.

I'm not saying they were naturally there. Once the siege starts, the Witch-King could easily dispatch units to the periphery of his theater of war to way-lay the Gondorians who would be attempting to reach Ithil. And if the Haradrim are part of this, all the easier to acquire good troops for this sort of action, as well as any supplies they bring to the table.

And for them to be able to do that against a major relief force (which I think it highly likely the Gondorians would have dispatched had they understood the situation as conforming to conventional norms) there would have to have been a major battle that we know nothing about.

I have never said that the Wiki created an army out of nothing, nor that he went unopposed. Easterlings, Haradrim, orcs...they do have other homes than just Mordor. It's not hard to see the Witch-King or Khamul conscripting these groups into combat. What I find hard to believe is that anyone would think that the Witch-King went into this without planning this out ahead of time.

I’m not saying that he could not have done this. I am saying that it does not fit the situation.

But, without any proper intelligence coming out of the city, it would be very difficult to gauge the strength of the enemy force.

Just as an aside, and this is not particularly directed at you, but isn’t it amazing how a palantir can at one moment be the most useful thing in the world and in the next moment serve no useful function whatsoever. Odd that…

Anyway…

Being the defender, they could not afford to make a mistake that could not only lose Ithil, but other important fortresses. While such a situation may not have happened, they would have to plan for it. Thus, they could not send the fullness of their might against the Wiki. Just one of many potential factors that may have hindered Gondor's response to the Ithil situation.

They could have thought this in the early months at most. Remember this siege lasted two years.