Tolkien's Influence Galactic? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mithalwen · 01-17-2007, 12:21 PM

Hobbits I think are described as being smaller than dwarves in "Concerning Hobbits" and you may recall that Balin's spare hood and cloak were rather large for Bilbo at the start of the Hobbit. How the ent-draught assisted Merry and Pippin compared I am unsure.

However as a stargazer I am delighted by this development and since Tolkien took some trouble over his astronomy to make sure phases of the moon were consistent in LOTR and giving Elvish names to heavenly bodies (as well as astronomy- related names to many elves), I can't help thinking he would be rather pleased.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-17-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

However as a stargazer I am delighted by this development and since Tolkien took some trouble over his astronomy to make sure phases of the moon were consistent in LOTR and giving Elvish names to heavenly bodies (as well as astronomy- related names to many elves), I can't help thinking he would be rather pleased.

Although Tolkien's use of astronomy was possibly more in "poetic" than "physics" terms, I agree with you. It is really interesting... but it does not end with "hobbit" galaxies: I know about an asteroid named Bilbo... There is even an asteroid named Tolkien! I'm quite sure the Professor would be pleased...

Hilde Bracegirdle · 01-17-2007, 05:57 PM

If you'll forgive me, this link lends a bit of atmosphere. And though it does not mention Bilbo or hobbits or Tolkien, at the end it does give us an inkling of just how many galaxies there are. It is easy to imagine that there may be many faint ones.

Many thanks Mith, for the refresher on hobbit stature!

Mithalwen · 01-18-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Although Tolkien's use of astronomy was possibly more in "poetic" than "physics" terms, I agree with you. It is really interesting... but it does not end with "hobbit" galaxies: I know about an asteroid named Bilbo... There is even an asteroid named Tolkien! I'm quite sure the Professor would be pleased...

Well to be fair, Tolkien was unlikely to have had much scientific education himself and there has been quite a lot of progress since his day but this article which someone directed me to on another thread a while back, may be of interest.

Having live so long with light pollution it took the blessed chance of waking in the small hours during a rail journey across the Australian outback to become aware of the full glory of a starlit night (and truly "get" the Elvish wonderment at it). It inspired me to take a course but having myself opted for poetry over Physics at 16 I struggled a bit

. I wonder if the stars would have been so important in Tolkien's middle earth had he not lived in his youth, at least in lands of dark skies.

While the use of names from Classical Mythology for planets and their moons is long standing, it really is quite an achievement for an invented mythology to have entered the collective consciousness to be used usefully. Splendid news...

Hilde Bracegirdle · 01-18-2007, 02:48 PM

Yes, it is good to see that the mythology 'took', no pun intended.

Bêthberry · 01-18-2007, 03:09 PM

Since this thread includes Tolkien's knowledge of constellations, I'm going to post this bit here, although it is unrelated to astrophysicists' naming practices.

Mithalwen's link does not mention this reference early in LotR:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strider

Their bags they piled on the parlour-floor. They pushed a low chair against the door and shut the window. Peering out, Frodo saw that the night was still clear. The Sickle* was swinging bright above the shoulders of Bree-hill. He then closed and barred the heavy inside shutters and drew the curtains together. . . .

. . . .

*The Hobbits' name for the Plough or Great Bear.

Yes, that's right. The asterisks mark a footnote in the text, a Tolkien footnote presumbably, not a CT footnote.

What I find remarkable about this footnote is that it distinctly erases the difference between our/Tolkien's Primary World and the sub-created world of Middle-earth.

Part apparently of what we Downers have named the "Translator Conceit", it directly links the hobbit nomenclature with that of our world. Perhaps it is one way Tolkien intended to suggest that Middle-earth was but our world in an early age--that is, it is part of his fictional bag of tricks--but what it also does is tie the text to something outside itself.

That is, this footnote clearly suggests that we are to view the story world as our world, and be prepared to see similarities between the two. It would, then, put a nail (just one nail, mind you) in the coffin of davem's insistence that the text must exist independently as a text, without any external references to our world or to our own literatures, that is must best be enjoyed as internally coherent story without any references to things outside it. Yet here is Tolkien directly linking Middle-earth to our own cultural practices of naming the heavens.
It isn't a reader seeing an analogy, as in Mithalwen's link to Tolkien's use of moon phases and stars, but something directly in the text which invites the reader to see hobbits as existing in our universe, but with their own system of naming things.

Fascinating, eh?

Mithalwen · 01-18-2007, 03:23 PM

The same stars may be viewed from a different planet

But I will not presume to argue for davem and since he may not do so for himself....

Bêthberry · 01-18-2007, 03:48 PM

Still the same point of reference, Mithalwen, and still invites comparison between the hobbits' world and ours, between sub-created world and readers' or Primary world.

Mithalwen · 01-19-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Still the same point of reference, Mithalwen, and still invites comparison between the hobbits' world and ours, between sub-created world and readers' or Primary world.

Don't be mean you can't do this to me when I don't have davem to sift what I was trying to say from what I might say and make it sound sensible and coherent.
And while I love the fact that Tolkien created such a detailed mythology for England that it seems plausible I am not going to admit to anything that might encourage the wearing of foot wigs.

Legate - yes was so delighted with it I cannot resist any opportunity to share. I must track back and find the original kind soul who refered me to it. And to save me "Babel fish"-ing - does Velká Medvědice mean Great Bear in Czech?

Yes the quote is familiar

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-18-2007, 03:50 PM

Wow, the article is really interesting, Mith. Anyway, I always liked to think of what the stars (planets) Tolkien mentioned in his works are... and it seemed obvious to me that the Sickle is just a name belonging to that thing in the sky, as much as Plough or Great Bear or Velký Vůz or Velká Medvědice (in my mother language). If someone pointed in the sky and told me "show me the Sickle" or "show me the Wilwarin and Menelmacar", I'll do it. "A man may do both" *

*The acknowledged should know what this quote refers to and where it comes from

01-17-2007, 12:21 PM	#1
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Hobbits I think are described as being smaller than dwarves in "Concerning Hobbits" and you may recall that Balin's spare hood and cloak were rather large for Bilbo at the start of the Hobbit. How the ent-draught assisted Merry and Pippin compared I am unsure. However as a stargazer I am delighted by this development and since Tolkien took some trouble over his astronomy to make sure phases of the moon were consistent in LOTR and giving Elvish names to heavenly bodies (as well as astronomy- related names to many elves), I can't help thinking he would be rather pleased. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

01-18-2007, 03:23 PM	#7
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	The same stars may be viewed from a different planet But I will not presume to argue for davem and since he may not do so for himself.... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

01-18-2007, 03:48 PM	#8
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Still the same point of reference, Mithalwen, and still invites comparison between the hobbits' world and ours, between sub-created world and readers' or Primary world. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

01-18-2007, 03:50 PM	#10
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Wow, the article is really interesting, Mith. Anyway, I always liked to think of what the stars (planets) Tolkien mentioned in his works are... and it seemed obvious to me that the Sickle is just a name belonging to that thing in the sky, as much as Plough or Great Bear or Velký Vůz or Velká Medvědice (in my mother language). If someone pointed in the sky and told me "show me the Sickle" or "show me the Wilwarin and Menelmacar", I'll do it. "A man may do both" * *The acknowledged should know what this quote refers to and where it comes from __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

01-17-2007, 05:57 PM	#3
Hilde Bracegirdle Relic of Wandering Days Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: You'll See Perpetual Change. Posts: 1,480	If you'll forgive me, this link lends a bit of atmosphere. And though it does not mention Bilbo or hobbits or Tolkien, at the end it does give us an inkling of just how many galaxies there are. It is easy to imagine that there may be many faint ones. Many thanks Mith, for the refresher on hobbit stature!

01-18-2007, 02:48 PM	#5
Hilde Bracegirdle Relic of Wandering Days Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: You'll See Perpetual Change. Posts: 1,480	Yes, it is good to see that the mythology 'took', no pun intended.