Saruman and betrayal - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elladan and Elrohir · 01-25-2007, 03:22 PM

With all due respect to those who feel otherwise, I think that sometimes we get too caught up in the "translator's conceit" of the book, and second-guess things that should just be taken at face value.

I have no problem with assuming that the Gandalf described in the book is the true Gandalf. And based on what I've read from Tolkien, I think he'd agree. So I don't think that Gandalf is lying, or misconstruing Saruman's speech, or anything of the sort. If he tells us that's what Saruman said, why should we believe otherwise?

Yes, Gandalf is a manipulator to some extent, but lying is not one of his tools.

"I do not lie." - G the W

Animalmother · 01-26-2007, 09:59 AM

Gandalf had several days before the Council of Elrond in which to confide to Elrond, the other High Elves, and Aragorn an accurate account of the words and mind of Saruman, without fear that any of them would be corrupted by Saruman's Machiavellian argument. He knew they could not be corrupted. He did not know that of Gloin, Gimili, Boromir, and maybe even Prince Legolas. It was to bring these up to date that the Council of Elrond was held, and where Gandalf spoke of Saruman. There it was reported that Sauron had attempted to bribe the Dwarves with three Dwarven Rings and with the restoration of Khazad-dum. Legolas's father had a known weakness for riches. Sauron, no fool, knew that most Men, most Dwarves and even some Elves were not incorruptible. Gandalf must have made the same calculation.

There are such things as White Lies, which are lies used to save lives and souls, and which are not for the profit of the liar.

01-25-2007, 03:22 PM	#1
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	With all due respect to those who feel otherwise, I think that sometimes we get too caught up in the "translator's conceit" of the book, and second-guess things that should just be taken at face value. I have no problem with assuming that the Gandalf described in the book is the true Gandalf. And based on what I've read from Tolkien, I think he'd agree. So I don't think that Gandalf is lying, or misconstruing Saruman's speech, or anything of the sort. If he tells us that's what Saruman said, why should we believe otherwise? Yes, Gandalf is a manipulator to some extent, but lying is not one of his tools. "I do not lie." - G the W __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

01-26-2007, 09:59 AM	#2
Animalmother Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14	Gandalf's White Lies Gandalf had several days before the Council of Elrond in which to confide to Elrond, the other High Elves, and Aragorn an accurate account of the words and mind of Saruman, without fear that any of them would be corrupted by Saruman's Machiavellian argument. He knew they could not be corrupted. He did not know that of Gloin, Gimili, Boromir, and maybe even Prince Legolas. It was to bring these up to date that the Council of Elrond was held, and where Gandalf spoke of Saruman. There it was reported that Sauron had attempted to bribe the Dwarves with three Dwarven Rings and with the restoration of Khazad-dum. Legolas's father had a known weakness for riches. Sauron, no fool, knew that most Men, most Dwarves and even some Elves were not incorruptible. Gandalf must have made the same calculation. There are such things as White Lies, which are lies used to save lives and souls, and which are not for the profit of the liar.