Tolkien and Norse Mythology

[Lalwendë]

Radagast beer? Now that's cool!

It's odd how just about all mythologies have an end times story and are finite; some with endless re-makings but with finite existences within that. Even odder is how the Universe itself according to the latest theory is finite in terms of Time; if I knew where to find some text I'd quote something about this but its mind-bending stuff - maybe one of our scientists knows where to find something? Incidentally, technology based on the silicon chip is also finite.

But I'm meandering again...

It says something in UT about Angainor, the chain forged to bind Melkor:

"Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his magic a seventh which he named therefore tilkal, and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its colour was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Therefter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness...":

Loki is bound with the innards of his son Narfi, but Fenris the wolf (son of Loki) is bound with a chain, slender yet stronger than iron and made from the sound of a cat's footfall, a woman's beard, the roots of a mountain, the sinew of a bear, breath of a fish and spittle of a bird.

So Aule uses six metals to make Angainor, like the six things used to make Gleipnir which binds Fenris. Interestingly, Aule makes a seventh element to create Angainor which has all the properties of the other elements - just as Melkor shares in all the attributes of his kin.

[Aiwendil]

There are a lot of interesting thoughts on this thread. Like others, I've always seen something of a parallel between Melkor's chaining and the chainings of Loki and Fenrir in Norse mythology.

It's true that there are many differences between Melkor and Loki; most importantly, Melkor is more explicitly evil than Loki, who is more of an amoral trickster. But I think that if one looks at the Book of Lost Tales mythology, one finds in 'Melko' a much closer similarity to Loki. Melko is there presented, at least at the outset, not as being explicitly the enemy of the Valar. Compare the accounts of the destruction of the Lamps in the Lost Tales and in the later Silmarillion. In the Silmarillion, the Valar make the Lamps after fighting a war with Melkor; Melkor later returns to Arda and destroys the Lamps. In the Lost Tales, Melkor works together with the Valar to make the Lamps - his part is to fashion the pillars on which the Lamps will stand. But he secretly fashions them out of ice, which then melts, destroying the Lamps. This earlier story strikes me as exactly the sort of mischief that Loki would engage in.

A small correction - I believe that when Lalwende says:

It says something in UT about Angainor, the chain forged to bind Melkor

. . . she means BoLT (the Lost Tales) not UT (Unfinished Tales). Which fact reinforces the comparison between Norse myth and, specifically, the earliest incarnation of Tolkien's Legendarium.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

There are a lot of interesting thoughts on this thread. Like others, I've always seen something of a parallel between Melkor's chaining and the chainings of Loki and Fenrir in Norse mythology.

It's true that there are many differences between Melkor and Loki; most importantly, Melkor is more explicitly evil than Loki, who is more of an amoral trickster. But I think that if one looks at the Book of Lost Tales mythology, one finds in 'Melko' a much closer similarity to Loki. Melko is there presented, at least at the outset, not as being explicitly the enemy of the Valar. Compare the accounts of the destruction of the Lamps in the Lost Tales and in the later Silmarillion. In the Silmarillion, the Valar make the Lamps after fighting a war with Melkor; Melkor later returns to Arda and destroys the Lamps. In the Lost Tales, Melkor works together with the Valar to make the Lamps - his part is to fashion the pillars on which the Lamps will stand. But he secretly fashions them out of ice, which then melts, destroying the Lamps. This earlier story strikes me as exactly the sort of mischief that Loki would engage in.

A small correction - I believe that when Lalwende says:


. . . she means BoLT (the Lost Tales) not UT (Unfinished Tales). Which fact reinforces the comparison between Norse myth and, specifically, the earliest incarnation of Tolkien's Legendarium.

Correct sir! I just looked for the quote online to save me getting up and going to the bookshelf - serves me right for being idle.

I've a couple of interesting books knocking about here that might turn up some more goodies too. One of the things I've been noticing a lot lately is links in language - Tolkien has pulled elements of the language from Norse mythology into his own languages and naming in particular. One odd one is a link between Golfimbul and Fimbulwinter - though quite what an Orc who inspires the game of Golf has to do with the endless triple winter that presages Ragnarok I'm not sure.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

One of the things I've been noticing a lot lately is links in language - Tolkien has pulled elements of the language from Norse mythology into his own languages and naming in particular. One odd one is a link between Golfimbul and Fimbulwinter - though quite what an Orc who inspires the game of Golf has to do with the endless triple winter that presages Ragnarok I'm not sure.

Not speaking, of course, of the Dwarves' (and Gandalf's) names: Dvalin, Bombur, Fíli, Kíli, Dori, Ori, as well as Thrór, Thráin, Fundin, the Moria-victims Lóni and Náli and many others are mentioned in Völuspá (in feeling that it is needed to be fair to the names which were not used in the Hobbit and LotR, I included the names Bívor, Bávor, Lit, Vit, Víli, Dúvi and Frosti to make a company of Dwarves in my M-E RPG adventure story).

And Golfimbul is not an Orc, he's a mere goblin! But you are right about the similarity... there seems to be an inspiration... Actually, what's the name (in English) of the mountain from where Golfimbul comes, according to Hobbit? Does it not have something in common with Norse mythology? (I am just guessing, since in Czech the word is obviously replaced.)

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And Golfimbul is not an Orc, he's a mere goblin! But you are right about the similarity... there seems to be an inspiration... Actually, what's the name (in English) of the mountain from where Golfimbul comes, according to Hobbit? Does it not have something in common with Norse mythology? (I am just guessing, since in Czech the word is obviously replaced.)

Golfimbul comes from Mount Gram. (Gram is also the name of Helm Hammerhand's father & of the sword which Sigurd uses to slay Fafnir).

On 'Golfimbul'. Gol is the name of one of the Valkyries & means 'screaming'. Fimbul means 'great', so the name may be translated 'great screaming'.... Other Valkyrie names seem to link to the Nazgul too - Skogul (“Raging”), Hlok (“Shrieking”)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

Golfimbul comes from Mount Gram. (Gram is also the name of Helm Hammerhand's father & of the sword which Sigurd uses to slay Fafnir).

Ah, I thought it to be something like that. Gram was also some mythic king, wasn't it? (I mean, in here, not in M-E) Maybe the name of Helm's father is derived more likely from it than from the sword's name.

Originally Posted by davem

On 'Golfimbul'. Gol is the name of one of the Valkyries & means 'screaming'. Fimbul means 'great', so the name may be translated 'great screaming'.... Other Valkyrie names seem to link to the Nazgul too - Skogul (“Raging”), Hlok (“Shrieking”)

Interesting. This is however, the only case when an orc (eee... goblin) is named in this way. Or do the names "Azog" or "Bolg" have any referrences to them? (speaking just of "the Hobbit" names, in LotR, it seems to be a really different cup of tea)
And the second part speaks for what I said earlier, that the Nazgul seem indeed to have hints of Valkyries in them. Maybe it was not intentional from Tolkien, but it seems like that.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

In the Lost Tales, Melkor works together with the Valar to make the Lamps - his part is to fashion the pillars on which the Lamps will stand. But he secretly fashions them out of ice, which then melts, destroying the Lamps. This earlier story strikes me as exactly the sort of mischief that Loki would engage in.

Not just "sort of", this is obviously Loki's "guest appearance" here. If anywhere, here the inspiration with Loki's character is obvious. Possibly this version was later rejected also because the final portrait of Melkor is less "Lokish" and resembles more the mentioned Satan.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Saxo Grammaticus writes about King Gram in "Gesta Danorum", he was joint king with his father King Skjold, which is one of the most known of the legendary kings.

I don't think Gram has been of any inspiration to Tolkien, though. . .he was a mighty warrior, he fell in battle with the Norweigains who were assisted by the saxon. . . .(but I doubt he ever existed)