Breaking of the World - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mhagain · 02-03-2007, 07:41 AM

That would be the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which survived into the 1937 "Silmarillion", and which I don't think was ever conclusively discarded by the man himself.

Elmo · 02-04-2007, 08:20 AM

Just a thought if Middle Earth is meant to be the past then the continents are in a completly different shape then what they are now how did they get this way. 6000 years is no where near the time continent drift needs to change the land mass significantly. Perhaps the second breaking caused this?

mhagain · 02-04-2007, 02:06 PM

It's anybody's guess, but here's a very interesting picture somebody did once:

http://element.ess.ucla.edu/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg

Rhod the Red · 02-04-2007, 06:03 PM

The books are not based on the real world, Tolkein has said so.

littlemanpoet · 02-04-2007, 08:45 PM

That is the most interesting overlay I've ever seen of Middle Earth over Europe and vicinity.

It should be understood that Tolkien said that his legendarium is feigned history of the real world. So it would be more accurate to say that the books are not the real world, but they are certainly based on a non-factual yet still more or less plausible supposed history of the real world.

The Sixth Wizard · 02-04-2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhagain

That would be the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which survived into the 1937 "Silmarillion", and which I don't think was ever conclusively discarded by the man himself.

Thanks!

Elmo · 02-05-2007, 10:06 AM

If Middle Earth is not in based in the 'real' world how come Tolkien said we were probably in the sixth or seventh age?

mhagain · 02-05-2007, 02:32 PM

Middle Earth is most definitely supposed to be the real world. It originated to fill in the gaps in some legends, and establish common ground between them. Even shortly before the time LoTR was written, the primary legendarium (i.e. Silmarillion) had the British Isles formed from the breaking of Beleriand. AElfwine, who was told the Lost Tales, and who survived well into the 1950s (at least) (see the final Ainulindale, for example) was English. And this is not even counting the various definitive statements in Letters (which I don't have to hand and therefore can't directly quote at the moment).

Břicho · 02-06-2007, 01:57 PM

That's a really cool map of Europe/Middle Earth, however the Shire seems FAR too much to the south. It seems almost at the same latitude as Rohan.

mhagain · 02-06-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Břicho

That's a really cool map of Europe/Middle Earth, however the Shire seems FAR too much to the south. It seems almost at the same latitude as Rohan.

That's a good observation, even allowing for perspective distortion from whatever projection they used for the Europe part of it.

It's still major cool to look at, though...

Legate of Amon Lanc · 02-06-2007, 02:53 PM

Yes, the north seems a little bit moved. Nevertheless, it is nice. And after all, who knows if the rotation axis was always diverted? Possibly in the Middle-earth times the North pole was really "on the top".

02-04-2007, 08:20 AM	#2
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	Just a thought if Middle Earth is meant to be the past then the continents are in a completly different shape then what they are now how did they get this way. 6000 years is no where near the time continent drift needs to change the land mass significantly. Perhaps the second breaking caused this? __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

02-04-2007, 06:03 PM	#4
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	The books are not based on the real world, Tolkein has said so. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

02-05-2007, 10:06 AM	#7
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	If Middle Earth is not in based in the 'real' world how come Tolkien said we were probably in the sixth or seventh age? __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

02-05-2007, 02:32 PM	#8
mhagain Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch Posts: 219	Middle Earth is most definitely supposed to be the real world. It originated to fill in the gaps in some legends, and establish common ground between them. Even shortly before the time LoTR was written, the primary legendarium (i.e. Silmarillion) had the British Isles formed from the breaking of Beleriand. AElfwine, who was told the Lost Tales, and who survived well into the 1950s (at least) (see the final Ainulindale, for example) was English. And this is not even counting the various definitive statements in Letters (which I don't have to hand and therefore can't directly quote at the moment). Last edited by mhagain; 02-05-2007 at 02:33 PM. Reason: word omission

02-06-2007, 01:57 PM	#9
Břicho Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vsetin Czech Republic Posts: 36	That's a really cool map of Europe/Middle Earth, however the Shire seems FAR too much to the south. It seems almost at the same latitude as Rohan. __________________ Only when you lose can you really know what it is exactly that you know

02-03-2007, 07:41 AM	#1
mhagain Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch Posts: 219	That would be the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which survived into the 1937 "Silmarillion", and which I don't think was ever conclusively discarded by the man himself.

02-04-2007, 02:06 PM	#3
mhagain Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch Posts: 219	It's anybody's guess, but here's a very interesting picture somebody did once: http://element.ess.ucla.edu/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg

02-04-2007, 08:45 PM	#5
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	That is the most interesting overlay I've ever seen of Middle Earth over Europe and vicinity. It should be understood that Tolkien said that his legendarium is feigned history of the real world. So it would be more accurate to say that the books are not the real world, but they are certainly based on a non-factual yet still more or less plausible supposed history of the real world.

02-06-2007, 02:53 PM	#11
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Yes, the north seems a little bit moved. Nevertheless, it is nice. And after all, who knows if the rotation axis was always diverted? Possibly in the Middle-earth times the North pole was really "on the top". __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories