A Measure of Success

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I did read all of what you wrote, Durelin, and I understand your concerns. As it's my Entish Bow story that prompted your thoughts, I will reply to those. As I am not currently involved in other RPGs, I cannot speak to the other issues.

I have long considered whether or not there was a future for the REB "franchise". There were three possibilities facing me:

1. quitting completely
2. continuing by myself as a fan fiction
3. attempting to achieve something as close as possible to the original RPG concept

1. "The End" was definitely an option, and the second part of the story was finished without plans to carry on. However, there still is a story begging to be told, and I have the impression that there are enough interested readers who would like to see it happen.

2. I first thought of writing further adventures as a fan fiction, since the original writers of several characters vital to the continuing plot are no longer active, and I had their permission to use their characters. However, this would have meant that the third part of what would then become a trilogy would be located somewhere else, thereby losing its connection with the first two parts. I would also then have excluded the influence of other writers, much to the detriment of the story.

3. I wanted continuity, since this was not a completely new story, independent of others. Therefore, after long consideration, I decided that this was the option most appropriate to the story concept.


I know that REB is an exception to several of the principles upon which our RPG system is based. However, the Gondor forum allows for considerable leeway, and exceptions can add to the colorful flavor of storytelling here. It's not like this particular game is taking away writers or space needed elsewhere - there are still plenty of possibilities for newcomers and others to find games in which they can participate.

REB is a parody - not every writer can handle that kind of narrative tone. That's the main reason why I have reserved the right to choose the participants. I have always been open to additional writers who have asked to join and of whom I know that they can write this kind of humor. The cameo idea is there precisely for that. However, I know how quickly other priorities take precedence, and that is why I do not care to struggle with long-time "save" posts and missing authors again.

If other members have new ideas for "genuine" RPGs such as you suggest, more power to them! It would also be nice if someone took interest in reviving the Seventh Star Inn. There's still lots of space left in Gondor...

[Durelin]

I really hope I did not offend. Though, obviously, I probably did, as I know I singled out your game, a continuation of what can probably be described as "your baby." I apologize profusely.

But I didn't mean to tear it down or criticize at all. It probably sounded that way (how many times can I use "probably" in a post? hrmm...), and, again, I apologize. It was meant to be an example of where it seems to me that many people's views of RPGs here in general are going. I have nothing against the idea, nor do I think it is somehow out of place or "doesn't belong" on the forums - but, as you have acknowledged, it is different. But as something new, it will be quite interesting.

I understand your frustrations regarding "waiting" for people, and I have been on both sides of the waiting...unfortunately more often on the making people wait end. I feel terrible when I make people wait, and I get a little irked when I feel like waiting for people is definitely slowing things down. It is not uncommon, really, for a RPG to ultimately slow down to a halt, so approaching a project that is dear to you in a way that will all but insure that will not happen is an excellent idea.

I'm starting to feel I was delusional in much of what I said... Ah well, maybe in a day or two I'll remember what my point was...or not...

[piosenniel]

Let me preface my responses by saying these are my personal biases as an RP’er and are not how I might approach these concerns as a moderator of the RP forums (although, I’ll waffle here, and say I might throw in a few “moderatish” observations).

Originally Posted by Durelin

I love RPing here. Love it. So everything I say in criticism is not meant really negatively. Really they're more concerns. I care about the RPing here, and so I have concerns for its longevity. They say (whoever this "they" is), "if it's not broken, don't fix it," but personally, I think it's starting to feel just an itty bit brokey around here...

I love RP’ing, too. (yesss.....my precious, we knows you do.....who else would be harebrained enough to take on the job of moderator *NOW, PIO......SURELY THAT REMARK IS MEANT TO EXCLUDE CHILD AND RIM AND THE VOICE FROM THE PAST, B.B.)

& along with Dury, I too have hade that creeping sensation that the style of RPG’ing here is changing

Originally Posted by Durelin

My first concern is with getting new gamers involved. The forums have been far from void of this, but it still seems like new gamers and few and far-between. I love writing with all the RPers on here, but we need new faces to keep things moving. I think that it really has become sort of "clique"-like, which was a concern voiced earlier in this thread. To an outsider, I think games don't look like their open. There's been a lot of inviting and "dedicated players" so that the roles are filled up quickly, and the use of "planning threads" where only invited people can post I believe deters people who aren't already established as players from looking into it.

New gamers seem to be less plentiful now than they were in the olden days. (*cue goldeny light here). To be honest, just a few years back we were tripping all over new gamers, eager to play. Speaking as a moderator, now, whose business it is to get players for a game’s roster, I’ve started to rely more and more (insist and prod, even) that game owners shop their game idea about with their friends to see if they can generate interest for some of the Character Roles. Beyond that there’s my job next of advertising the game and PM’ing like heck all the fledging players and those more experienced to see if I can drum up enough interest to fill the rest of the slots. It’s a labor intensive way of getting people interested in a game. And it goes on behind the scenes, so no one knows how many prospective players are contacted and then cajoled, wheedled, whatever needs to be done, to at least have them think they might like to look at the game and perhaps play in it.

Originally Posted by Durelin

The Inns are great for just jumping in (well, the "Golden Perch" is...the "Eorling Mead Hall" is great, but I don't think it's as good for people just to jump right it, which is understandable as it's the Rohan "inn"), but I do think people get bored. Unfortunately people do tend to get bored rather quickly. Should the RP Forums cater to those people? No, but perhaps things need to be a little more open.

I’m really quite unclear here about how you mean the gaming process should be a little more open. As you know, those who want to lead a game can always ask for a planning thread to get a game in shape for approval by the mods. Sometimes the planning threads are closed, so that the game leaders/proposers can work exclusively on the game. It’s always an option to leave the planning thread open.....

Originally Posted by Durelin

Then there is the "moving up" in the forums. While having the different forums for different levels allows for definite growth and for good writers/RPers to focus their efforts together, it also can have a "reward system" feel to it. Unfortunately, becoming a "Rohan Gamer" and being on the nice, nifty list becomes like a merit badge, and "getting out of the Shire" might well become a goal. At least, it can.

I’ve always detested the idea that a gamer “moves up/grows out of” one forum and need abandon the “lower” forum for the “higher/better” forum.

Here’s how I see it:

The Shire is very labor intensive for the moderators. It’s the place where gamers (players & leader/proposers) can get the most assistance from us as they learn to game using the BD process. Some gamers enjoy that sort of hands on approach by management; some after a few games played and run want to try their own skills at managing a character or the running of a game. By the time one is considered by us ready to game in Rohan, I expect them to have a thorough grasp of the rules for gaming. Games are less moderated there (at least that is my expectation, goal, ideal).

Originally Posted by Durelin

My other major concern deals with the distinction between "Fan-Fiction" and "Roleplaying" which is growing less and less, and which has been an issue I think practically since people started realizing that "Freestyle RPing" was just not working. I agree, trust me. I like fan-fiction, and I think displaying writers here on BD's work as true "fiction" is a wonderful thing, but turning a RPG into a fan-fiction practically before it's even started is an issue for me.

Forum roleplaying is great because it's writing and storytelling. But it's not the same as writing fiction. Roleplaying is about reactions, about being "in-character," not about writing about a character. You are the character. Sounds nerdy...well, I guess it is. The plot must be character driven, which means it must be driven by all the writers. Of course you should have a basic plot, of course a free-for-all is a waste of time, but you can't write a character based on a story. Once you have created the character, they're the ones you're writing the story as.

Writing fiction as a group takes a more cohesive group than roleplaying. Fiction is more definitively planned, and while stories can be character-driven, you're more mindful of the story as a whole. The window which you look through is widened, as writers plan out the path the story will take, and not necessarily just what their character will say or do next. Again, still sounds like fun to me, but it's different.

The story of a fiction becomes someone's or multiple people's baby. There's no way around it. It's not going to be left as open to others as an RPG is.

You’ve hit one of my sore points as an RP’er here. I completely agree with you on this. In fact, I find myself withdrawing more from RP’ing here because so many of the games do seem to me to be more like cooperatively written stories than they do Role Playing. There seems to be more of an END GOAL for the games and players in a lot of the games.....& I should narrow this down to me.....I feel like there are too many constraints put on my characters in order to meet the needs of the game in reaching that end goal. To be honest, I like those games where there is some basic location/history/plot starter and the players, through their characters, determine by the course of their writing what happens at the end. This sort of gaming focuses on the individuality of the characters and takes away (a good thing in my opinion) the use of one player’s character by another player to “move the storyline along”. I could rant on for reams about this, but I’ll stop here

& no, you’re not a nerd about this “being the character” approach. That’s what I do with all my characters and heavens-to-betsy I’m no ne..... (yessss, precious......of course you’re not.....despite the section of your closet devoted to Middle-earth outfits.....and that sword.....

Originally Posted by Durelin

I wanted to address one game in particular that has me torn. It's probably pretty easy to guess, because it hasn't even started yet...yes, Estelyn's "REB." I love the concept, I really do, and I'd love to be a part of such a parody, and the idea of "cameos" sounds really great (cameos are such fun! though actually I don't think I've ever written one...), but...is that really an RPG?

Yes, of course there will be character interaction between the cameos and the characters Esty plays, but, why are those cameo characters, if they are but cameos? I think they become - and I know this sounds really negative; I'm sorry, it's the only way I can manage to express it - "pawns" to the story. In RPGs, when cameos come into the game is determined by the game manager, and largely cameos have a decided upon "purpose." I don't know if this is quite what "cameos" will be like in this game, but they could well become that even if it's not the intention.

Now, does that mean it's bad? No. But I think it does mean that it's losing a lot of RPG qualities.

I have to disagree about this game. I think it’s more difficult to write a quality parody RPG. But I think the players have succeeded so far. And I do feel, when I read the game, that it is character driven.

Can’t say what the next installment will be like. We’ll have to wait and see on that.

Originally Posted by Durelin

A lot about the RPing on BD has lost some RP qualities. In particular is the idea of writing "briefly" for another character. I don't think writing for another character should be allowed at all, and I regret having to do it to carry things along sometimes. So perhaps it should only be allowed when one needs to move the plot along (such as wrapping up a battle, bring a group to a destination, etc.). Also, I must admit I hate "saves." But again, they are good for when the plot needs to be moved along, whether it is because someone needs to get something in before the plot is moved along, or if it is already determined that the post that will fill in the save will move the plot along, having a specific purpose. And I do think "moving the plot along" has become a part of almost every action. I really like having the ability to just sit back and have some character interaction for a while, rather than always just trying to keep events and characters moving. I think it's often difficult to get around all the moving plot. Is it because there is too much plot? And if there is less plot, will that mean it is less interesting to RPers?

Another one of my bugaboos --- using another player’s character. And the only time I think it should be done is if the two players have arranged beforehand that one’s character can be written for by the other. I don’t think it right to do it “to move the plot along” and then say “sorry, I used your character a little; tell me if I need to edit”. Geez, I can feel all those players cringing in remembrance of PM’s from me about this”no-no”.

Originally Posted by Durelin

I don't know. Maybe the issue really is that things are more "plot-driven" than "character driven." And I think fan-fiction is more the former, while roleplaying is more the latter.

Now, as I said: I love the idea of writing group fan-fiction...but I want to roleplay in roleplaying forums.

Couldn’t agree with you more.....as a player, that is. On the other hand, as a moderator, there seem to be a number of game proposers/leaders as well as players that really like the idea of plot driven writing.

So what could we do about that? Perhaps a disclaimer of sorts at the start of a discussion thread on how the game’s proposer feels he/she wants the game to be played? That way gamers who don’t relish this sort of writing/playing can opt out of considering the game. Don’t know how this would work. And of course, those proposers who are wanting more character driven games can make their own intentions known.

About the Barrow-Downs Middle-earth Fan Fiction forum(Good gravy, Pio, you’re not about to tell them you’re moderating there, too, are you.....nerd!) ---

Not sure a cooperative fan-fic would work there for me as moderator – it might. I’d have to think about it more. Logistics, time, etc.....

Anyway – thanks for bringing this all up, m’dear! Do keep the thoughts and comments flowing.

~*~ Pio

*her own disclaimer: I am not a loser for having read all this & commented on it.....just mildly obsessive/compulsive

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I don't know. Maybe the issue really is that things are more "plot-driven" than "character driven." And I think fan-fiction is more the former, while roleplaying is more the latter.

Now, as I said: I love the idea of writing group fan-fiction...but I want to roleplay in roleplaying forums.

Originally Posted by Pio

Couldn’t agree with you more.....as a player, that is. On the other hand, as a moderator, there seem to be a number of game proposers/leaders as well as players that really like the idea of plot driven writing.

So what could we do about that? Perhaps a disclaimer of sorts at the start of a discussion thread on how the game’s proposer feels he/she wants the game to be played? That way gamers who don’t relish this sort of writing/playing can opt out of considering the game. Don’t know how this would work. And of course, those proposers who are wanting more character driven games can make their own intentions known.

This difference is a tough one. When I started writing here I had a lots of concerns about the storyline (and I still do, at least somewhat) - and thence I think was more like a fan-fiction writer. But I think I have learned a thing or two on the way. Hopefully.

I was told that the RPG's are about interaction and playing the roles, yes I was. I don't deny that. But I must also say, that I was never introduced to this difference properly and the whole concept was a bit vague so that I had to learn to grasp it by trial and error by judging from how different people reacted to what I did. And I'm afraid I had certain people a bit frustrated with me on those early days of mine...

Now, reading what Dury says, is kind of opening my eyes to the problem the first time in an enlightening way. It seems so much clearer as it's formulated thus.

This is no reclamation. Far from it. The work the mods do here is just absolutely fantastic. I just think that if we wish to stress the playing of the roles -part of writing here we should make this difference more clear to anyone coming into these games - and cling to it ourselves as well.

And if people wish to make more plot-oriented stuff, let them do it and make that clear in the beginning of the game that is about to start. I think both ways of writing are interesting ones and can be highly gratifying, but a conflict easily ensues if people thrive for different goals within a same game.

Thanks Dury for this opening!

[Durelin]

Yes, new gamers are much fewer...and I guess I was trying to figure out a reason "why," if there is one. Ah, yes, I did forget that...it seems a possibility that the games, though they are definitely open to everyone, the RPGs on here might seem daunting to new players. Yes, that is their problem, I agree...people have to jump in. And I think it has been made as easy as possible for them to do so.

Really I suppose it's just the fact that we have fewer RPers these days and so there are fewer games. That is also related to what I was trying to say when I was talking about people getting bored: newer gamers often aren't satisfied by simply playing in the Inn, and want to get into a game.

Estelyn is right about "The Seventh Star." And I do wish I spent more time in the "Inns" in general. Unfortunately I'm attracted by the prospect of new game storylines and character possibilities involving death and destruction that you can't have in the Inns...I fail! Besides, I'm trying to keep my emo characters away from the cheery hobbit-filled Golden Perch...yes, that's it...

Originally Posted by Pio

The Shire is very labor intensive for the moderators. It’s the place where gamers (players & leader/proposers) can get the most assistance from us as they learn to game using the BD process. Some gamers enjoy that sort of hands on approach by management; some after a few games played and run want to try their own skills at managing a character or the running of a game. By the time one is considered by us ready to game in Rohan, I expect them to have a thorough grasp of the rules for gaming. Games are less moderated there (at least that is my expectation, goal, ideal).

I really like this description of the supposed "moving up." I personally don't view "moving up and moving on" as the goal, but I think it's easy for people to see it that way. I think the Rohan Gamers vs. Rohan Game Owners list is helpful, but I also think it can be harmful. It's not like your name is on a plaque, but, again, it can easily be seen that way. Perhaps part of less moderating in Rohan could be less moderating by the moderators in determining specifically who may and may not join games in Rohan (starting games is another matter). Maybe it should just be successfully playing in at least one Shire is required, and then whether or not a player who has met that simple requirement is actually ready to play in a game is up to the game owner's discretion, though the game owner obviously still will have to give way to the moderators' decision if they feel they need to step in?

I really don't see it as a big issue at all; I just had the thought, so I put it down...

Originally Posted by Pio

To be honest, I like those games where there is some basic location/history/plot starter and the players, through their characters, determine by the course of their writing what happens at the end.

I agree! Such a game takes even more cooperation, more really playing together than just writing a character's part of the story. Obviously there can be problems, but...not if you can pull off that cooperation.

Originally Posted by Pio

have to disagree about this game. I think it’s more difficult to write a quality parody RPG. But I think the players have succeeded so far. And I do feel, when I read the game, that it is character driven.

Can’t say what the next installment will be like. We’ll have to wait and see on that.

Again, I did not mean to criticize the game, or make any comment on past installments. I agree that it is much more difficult to write good parody (particularly since, if parody is even slightly bad, it is just...well, pretty painful), and the invitation-only basis makes sense.

Originally Posted by Pio

Another one of my bugaboos --- using another player’s character. And the only time I think it should be done is if the two players have arranged beforehand that one’s character can be written for by the other. I don’t think it right to do it “to move the plot along” and then say “sorry, I used your character a little; tell me if I need to edit”. Geez, I can feel all those players cringing in remembrance of PM’s from me about this”no-no”.

Yes...I don't very often actually get upset at all about people using my character, but I'd rather they didn't. (I do recall one time getting extremely upset when a character, though I agreed to have him killed, was killed off hastily and barely mentioned in a post...*shudders*) I'd also much, much rather not use anyone else's characters even a bit...and of course, I say that, but have been guilty of using and borrowing characters right and left in RPGs. I try not to use them too much, but, particularly when I am a game manager and I feel like the plot and driving it along is what people expect, I find myself doing that more. I think I need to rethink my playing and managing style in that sense.

Originally Posted by Pio

Couldn’t agree with you more.....as a player, that is. On the other hand, as a moderator, there seem to be a number of game proposers/leaders as well as players that really like the idea of plot driven writing.

And I like the idea of plot driven writing quite a bit, too, and am certainly not adverse to writing in a plot driven story. But I also really want to write in a character driven RPG.

Originally Posted by Pio

So what could we do about that? Perhaps a disclaimer of sorts at the start of a discussion thread on how the game’s proposer feels he/she wants the game to be played? That way gamers who don’t relish this sort of writing/playing can opt out of considering the game. Don’t know how this would work. And of course, those proposers who are wanting more character driven games can make their own intentions known.

Yes, I think it would help, at least. And that's all it needs to do. Nogrod makes an excellent, excellent point...perhaps the point underlying everything I've rattled on about: communication. Perhaps that is what we are lacking. Not communicating about specific games - well, we all know those discussion/planning threads get their use! - but just communication about this whole RPing thing in general. I think this should be part of the communication on discussion threads, and perhaps is overlooked. (I know I overlook it...I get too caught up in the details a lot, that I fail to see the bigger picture. Of course, I've also been known to get stuck in the reverse.)

Pio's suggestion of communication regarding what "RPing" is in terms of a specific game has got to be a good thing.

And Nogrod - No one was upset with you! I know I was just a tad frustrated because I had trouble seeing things from your angle, and then expressing my own view. This is all difficult to talk about.

Thanks for listening to me, and for this discussion. It's great to have!

I am very pleasantly surprised to find that I have successfully communicated an idea, Nogrod! Thank you!

*continues to proudly display her nerd-dom...

-Durelin

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Yes, new gamers are much fewer...and I guess I was trying to figure out a reason "why," if there is one.

Not sure but I have a hunch that this plays into it: did RPs begin to lose the number of new players roughly about the same time that 'werewolf' started at the Downs?

[Firefoot]

I think you also have to take into account the fact that the Downs itself has not gaining as many new members.

[Himaran]

I'm not sure if anyone brought this up already, but the sudden surge of new members and players (including myself) directly coincided with the systematic release of the Lord of the Rings movies. That was a huge publicity boost and suddenly everyone was interested in LOTR again. I think now we are seeing a gradual shift back to a balance, where fans of the books remain and fans of the movies will disappear.