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Old 02-09-2007, 08:01 AM   #1
Thinlómien
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But Celeborn was in some way close with Elrond and Gandalf, or that's the feeling I get reading the part in LotR where they all sit like stones in tye night and discuss the past times. I think that implies that Celeborn had had plenty of dealings with Gandalf and Elrond (which would be politically wise and which the Lórien-part in LotR implies) and thus I see no reason for him to be excluded from the council.
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Old 02-09-2007, 10:25 AM   #2
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I have serious difficulties seeing Celeborn on the Council. For all that he may be accounted one of the Wise, he doesn't really show it when the Fellowship first arrive in Lothlorien.

There's speculation in Parma Endorion that Glorfindel might be a Vanya. "Few among men have spoken with them" in the Silmarillion writings certainly implies that some among men have had the opportunity to speak with them, whether that is AElfwine and similar figures, or men at the War of Wrath, or something entirely different, is another matter. If he is one, then he's almost certainly a candidate for the Council.

As for Cirdan, I personally think his lot was to stay at the Havens. Even at the Council of Elrond he only sent a representative, when it might be reasonably imagined that he would have come himself.
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Old 02-09-2007, 06:58 PM   #3
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Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lac:

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Glorfindel. I am not sure, radagastly, where you get that information that the fact that he was sent back has any connection with the Council - there surely were many who could have been in the Council and were not.
I didn't mean to suggest that Glorfindel was sent back to Middle Earth specifically to join the Council of the Wise, but that his purpose was similar to that of the Istari, except with less innate power but more power to act. He was there to help in the fight against Sauron, else he would probably not have been asked to go. He may have volunteered, of course, to leave the West and return for a time, but in the end, it's the same. He was there to fight and advise in the struggle against Sauron, that's all.
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Old 02-10-2007, 02:57 PM   #4
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#2

Quote:
Originally Posted by radagastly
I didn't mean to suggest that Glorfindel was sent back to Middle Earth specifically to join the Council of the Wise, but that his purpose was similar to that of the Istari, except with less innate power but more power to act. He was there to help in the fight against Sauron, else he would probably not have been asked to go. He may have volunteered, of course, to leave the West and return for a time, but in the end, it's the same. He was there to fight and advise in the struggle against Sauron, that's all.
Well, this would make sense then. Yes, I agree and now thinking of it, I really see Glorfindel very likely to be a part of the Council. People (and elves) are not sent back for nothing, and if he was there to battle against Sauron in some very important way, it would be quite strange to act "solo" and not to coordinate (at least in the main things) with the rest of the Wise.

That Celeborn thing... well, I think the proof is still less solid than Glorfindel's. Although being head of the Galadhrim, he still didn't participate on many things in which Galadriel did. I would like to see something of at least 99% value of putting him to the Council.
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Old 02-10-2007, 10:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radagastly
his purpose was similar to that of the Istari, except with less innate power but more power to act.
This seems to be a good summary of Glorfindel. His main previous role was in 1975 of the 3rd Age where he drives the Witch King away. Even though the Istari were on hand at the time, they clearly were not leading armies against the forces of Sauron...
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Old 02-10-2007, 12:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinlómien
But Celeborn was in some way close with Elrond and Gandalf, or that's the feeling I get reading the part in LotR where they all sit like stones in tye night and discuss the past times. I think that implies that Celeborn had had plenty of dealings with Gandalf and Elrond (which would be politically wise and which the Lórien-part in LotR implies) and thus I see no reason for him to be excluded from the council.
Where is the passage where Celeborn and Elrond and Gandalf discuss past times? I don't remember this. I guess they all assembled for the crowning of Aragorn, but I don't remember anything about this...
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Old 02-10-2007, 02:52 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by CSteefel
Where is the passage where Celeborn and Elrond and Gandalf discuss past times? I don't remember this. I guess they all assembled for the crowning of Aragorn, but I don't remember anything about this...
It's in the chapter "Many Partings", RotK, and takes place after the coronation, on the way back to Rivendell and the Shire. The "discussion" took place silently; the passage is one of the main sources for the use of Ósanwe.
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Old 02-10-2007, 10:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar
It's in the chapter "Many Partings", RotK, and takes place after the coronation, on the way back to Rivendell and the Shire. The "discussion" took place silently; the passage is one of the main sources for the use of Ósanwe.
Yep, forgot about this. Very nice passage, especially the touch about a passerby perhaps thinking they had come across some "grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands..."
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Old 03-10-2007, 03:56 AM   #9
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Just a point about what the White Council had to face in Dol Goldor.

After reading about the fate of Elves after they die in Morgoth's Ring it's clear that Sauron wasn't called the Necromancer for nothing. He controlled the spirits of evil Elves who had refused to enter the Halls of Mandos. I'm guessing Dol Guldor would be an abode of many of them. What form would these demons take? I'm guessing Galadriel would have to use Elvish magic to combat them in some way. I don't think even without Sauron there you could have taken Dol Guldor just with a mundane force.
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Old 03-10-2007, 12:57 PM   #10
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White-Hand #7

Really, hewhoarisesinmight? That's indeed very interesting... if you have anything more you could add about that, I'd certainly like to hear about it... hmm... seems I have to try to somehow (well, yes, but how) obtain Morgoth's Ring and all those books as well...

Anyway, to the topic. Someone has said here that the answer to #7 is possible only as a speculation. Well, not actually:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond
But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.
So it was "by the devices of Saruman". Whatever evil elf-spirits might have been there, everything was accomplished by the devices of Saruman.

The only question is, what "the devices of Saruman" mean. I don't think only some "blasting fire" would be enough to drive Sauron off. Should "the devices" be interpretated only as "plans"? Or did he use some of the Enemy's devices, when he was studying them for so long? Not that the Council would allow him, for example, use Uruk-hai (of course he didn't have them yet at that time)... but maybe something more "subtle", like the "blasting fire", would be good...

Any ideas?
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Old 03-10-2007, 02:03 PM   #11
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Well an Elf who refused to join Mandos was evil so they just drifted about without a body. It was deemed dangerous to communicate with said spirits as you be in peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies, and also they might take control of the living person's body and become, zombies I suppose. Its very fascinating as Tolkien lays the blame of all those bad stories about Elves you hear in folklore due to these spirits. Like children being kidnapped and the like...

Anyway Sauron was a master of communicating with these evil elven ghosts and taught this trick to followers. It is therefore not unlikely Sauron created Elvish zombie type things by giving these 'houseless' Elves what they desired - a body.
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