Gandalf Captured!? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legate of Amon Lanc · 02-10-2007, 02:14 PM

I suppose right down there there weren't any guards. Cf. Bilbo and Thorin in Thranduil's halls, something like that. Gandalf says that Sauron took the Ring and didn't care anymore (he even didn't take the map and key of Erebor - read the UT, he speaks very much of it there).

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 02-10-2007, 03:02 PM

That is another point I found quite bizarre: here Sauron finds the Dwarf who has one of his rings, and he doesn't even search him fully. He could have had dozens of other rings for all he knew!

Legate of Amon Lanc · 02-10-2007, 03:12 PM

Well, no, I suppose Sauron saw he has one ring, three handkerchiefs, one map, seven shovels, a key, and four thousand thirty-five golden pieces in his pockets. He took the ring and then just threw him to the dungeon. He didn't care of the rest.

The 1,000 Reader · 02-10-2007, 04:06 PM

Even though the key would make an alliance with the dragon much easier, as in getting to see the dragon?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 02-11-2007, 02:35 AM

The key was not labeled "this is a key to Erebor" and Sauron probably didn't bother to look at the map, since it showed the Lonely Mountain, which he knew. Maybe in the lust for the Ring he didn't even look at it. And if Sauron wanted to ally with Smaug, he'd probably send some of his classic Horsemen In The Night through the front gate. It does look suspicious if you sneak through the back entrance to a person (or Dragon) you want to make a fair deal with.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 02-11-2007, 05:59 AM

Sauron is meant to be the big, scary Dark Lord. Yet he captures a Dwarf who has one of his rings of power, and doesn't even bother to strip him of everything he has, slay him, or keep a watch on him. That's dodgy management; that's poor decision-making if you ask me.

Related point: could Sauron not sense that Gandalf was in Dol Guldur? I'm presuming Sauron was there at all times. If Sauron was hiding behind the curtains in Rivendell I'm sure Gandalf or Elrond would have felt something.

MatthewM · 02-11-2007, 09:54 AM

Another question that has me a little confused- wasn't Sauron unable to take physical form? So, how would they "find him" in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 02-11-2007, 09:56 AM

That's one of the main things Tolkien points out: the blindness of those who lust for power. This repeats in Professor's works again and again, I think it is quite obvious and one of the central parts of it. "Hurrah, I have the Seventh Dwarven Ring!" Finish. I think its very logical.

About Gandalf - I suppose Gandalf's presence was not so strong as Sauron's, and Dol Guldur wasn't Mordor. I think if Gandalf wanted to be hidden, he remained hidden there (if he avoided going too close to Sauron).

MatthewM - what do you mean by "find Sauron"? No one ventured to Dol Guldur except Gandalf. The Elves who lived there fled when the Shadow came, and there were dark beasts in the woods, they knew there is something evil in Dol Guldur, but no one went there to check it. After all, some "evil power" was for example also in Moria, and no one also went there except Thrain.

The 1,000 Reader · 02-11-2007, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Sauron is meant to be the big, scary Dark Lord. Yet he captures a Dwarf who has one of his rings of power, and doesn't even bother to strip him of everything he has, slay him, or keep a watch on him. That's dodgy management; that's poor decision-making if you ask me.

Yes, Sauron is really just an idiot with power and too many names. A session with Silmarillion and UT reveals this, though not directly. I know Tolkien wanted good to win, but I also get the feeling that he was trying to say that evil was dumb.

02-10-2007, 02:14 PM	#1
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	I suppose right down there there weren't any guards. Cf. Bilbo and Thorin in Thranduil's halls, something like that. Gandalf says that Sauron took the Ring and didn't care anymore (he even didn't take the map and key of Erebor - read the UT, he speaks very much of it there). __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

02-10-2007, 03:02 PM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	That is another point I found quite bizarre: here Sauron finds the Dwarf who has one of his rings, and he doesn't even search him fully. He could have had dozens of other rings for all he knew! __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

02-10-2007, 03:12 PM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Well, no, I suppose Sauron saw he has one ring, three handkerchiefs, one map, seven shovels, a key, and four thousand thirty-five golden pieces in his pockets. He took the ring and then just threw him to the dungeon. He didn't care of the rest. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

02-10-2007, 04:06 PM	#4
The 1,000 Reader Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps. Posts: 527	Even though the key would make an alliance with the dragon much easier, as in getting to see the dragon? __________________ "And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains

02-11-2007, 02:35 AM	#5
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	The key was not labeled "this is a key to Erebor" and Sauron probably didn't bother to look at the map, since it showed the Lonely Mountain, which he knew. Maybe in the lust for the Ring he didn't even look at it. And if Sauron wanted to ally with Smaug, he'd probably send some of his classic Horsemen In The Night through the front gate. It does look suspicious if you sneak through the back entrance to a person (or Dragon) you want to make a fair deal with. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

02-11-2007, 05:59 AM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Sauron is meant to be the big, scary Dark Lord. Yet he captures a Dwarf who has one of his rings of power, and doesn't even bother to strip him of everything he has, slay him, or keep a watch on him. That's dodgy management; that's poor decision-making if you ask me. Related point: could Sauron not sense that Gandalf was in Dol Guldur? I'm presuming Sauron was there at all times. If Sauron was hiding behind the curtains in Rivendell I'm sure Gandalf or Elrond would have felt something. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

02-11-2007, 09:54 AM	#7
MatthewM Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Posts: 628	Another question that has me a little confused- wasn't Sauron unable to take physical form? So, how would they "find him" in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer? __________________ "Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring

02-11-2007, 09:56 AM	#8
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	That's one of the main things Tolkien points out: the blindness of those who lust for power. This repeats in Professor's works again and again, I think it is quite obvious and one of the central parts of it. "Hurrah, I have the Seventh Dwarven Ring!" Finish. I think its very logical. About Gandalf - I suppose Gandalf's presence was not so strong as Sauron's, and Dol Guldur wasn't Mordor. I think if Gandalf wanted to be hidden, he remained hidden there (if he avoided going too close to Sauron). MatthewM - what do you mean by "find Sauron"? No one ventured to Dol Guldur except Gandalf. The Elves who lived there fled when the Shadow came, and there were dark beasts in the woods, they knew there is something evil in Dol Guldur, but no one went there to check it. After all, some "evil power" was for example also in Moria, and no one also went there except Thrain. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories Last edited by Legate of Amon Lanc; 02-11-2007 at 10:00 AM.