The White Council assaults Dol Guldur? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

CSteefel · 02-10-2007, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

It's in the chapter "Many Partings", RotK, and takes place after the coronation, on the way back to Rivendell and the Shire. The "discussion" took place silently; the passage is one of the main sources for the use of Ósanwe.

Yep, forgot about this. Very nice passage, especially the touch about a passerby perhaps thinking they had come across some "grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands..."

Elmo · 03-10-2007, 03:56 AM

Just a point about what the White Council had to face in Dol Goldor.

After reading about the fate of Elves after they die in Morgoth's Ring it's clear that Sauron wasn't called the Necromancer for nothing. He controlled the spirits of evil Elves who had refused to enter the Halls of Mandos. I'm guessing Dol Guldor would be an abode of many of them. What form would these demons take? I'm guessing Galadriel would have to use Elvish magic to combat them in some way. I don't think even without Sauron there you could have taken Dol Guldor just with a mundane force.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 03-10-2007, 12:57 PM

Really, hewhoarisesinmight? That's indeed very interesting... if you have anything more you could add about that, I'd certainly like to hear about it... hmm... seems I have to try to somehow (well, yes, but how) obtain Morgoth's Ring and all those books as well...

Anyway, to the topic. Someone has said here that the answer to #7 is possible only as a speculation. Well, not actually:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chapter 2, The Council of Elrond

But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.

So it was "by the devices of Saruman". Whatever evil elf-spirits might have been there, everything was accomplished by the devices of Saruman.

The only question is, what "the devices of Saruman" mean. I don't think only some "blasting fire" would be enough to drive Sauron off. Should "the devices" be interpretated only as "plans"? Or did he use some of the Enemy's devices, when he was studying them for so long? Not that the Council would allow him, for example, use Uruk-hai (of course he didn't have them yet at that time)... but maybe something more "subtle", like the "blasting fire", would be good...

Any ideas?

Elmo · 03-10-2007, 02:03 PM

Well an Elf who refused to join Mandos was evil so they just drifted about without a body. It was deemed dangerous to communicate with said spirits as you be in peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies, and also they might take control of the living person's body and become, zombies I suppose. Its very fascinating as Tolkien lays the blame of all those bad stories about Elves you hear in folklore due to these spirits. Like children being kidnapped and the like...

Anyway Sauron was a master of communicating with these evil elven ghosts and taught this trick to followers. It is therefore not unlikely Sauron created Elvish zombie type things by giving these 'houseless' Elves what they desired - a body.

Raynor · 03-10-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Its very fascinating as Tolkien lays the blame of all those bad stories about Elves you hear in folklore due to these spirits.

Hm, I don't think I follow. Can you be more specific?

Elmo · 03-10-2007, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Thus it may be seen to those who in latter days hold that the Elves are dangerous to Men and that it is folly or wickedness to see converse with them do not speak without reason

Aelfwine says this and you can't speak to these Elves becuase they delude you and take your bodies. That's why Elves got a bad name throughout the ages.

William Cloud Hicklin · 03-26-2007, 06:23 PM

In defense of Radagast: elsewhere (can't find it at the moment) Tolkien glosses the White Council as 'the Istari and the chief Eldar,' which presumably would include Radagast, as well as the Ithryn Luin if they were still around. And in The Hobbit Gandalf went to a 'gathering of the White Wizards,' which implies a number larger than two.

03-10-2007, 03:56 AM	#2
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	Just a point about what the White Council had to face in Dol Goldor. After reading about the fate of Elves after they die in Morgoth's Ring it's clear that Sauron wasn't called the Necromancer for nothing. He controlled the spirits of evil Elves who had refused to enter the Halls of Mandos. I'm guessing Dol Guldor would be an abode of many of them. What form would these demons take? I'm guessing Galadriel would have to use Elvish magic to combat them in some way. I don't think even without Sauron there you could have taken Dol Guldor just with a mundane force. __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

03-10-2007, 02:03 PM	#4
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	Well an Elf who refused to join Mandos was evil so they just drifted about without a body. It was deemed dangerous to communicate with said spirits as you be in peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies, and also they might take control of the living person's body and become, zombies I suppose. Its very fascinating as Tolkien lays the blame of all those bad stories about Elves you hear in folklore due to these spirits. Like children being kidnapped and the like... Anyway Sauron was a master of communicating with these evil elven ghosts and taught this trick to followers. It is therefore not unlikely Sauron created Elvish zombie type things by giving these 'houseless' Elves what they desired - a body. __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

03-26-2007, 06:23 PM	#7
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	In defense of Radagast: elsewhere (can't find it at the moment) Tolkien glosses the White Council as 'the Istari and the chief Eldar,' which presumably would include Radagast, as well as the Ithryn Luin if they were still around. And in The Hobbit Gandalf went to a 'gathering of the White Wizards,' which implies a number larger than two.