Denethor's plunge - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Knight of Gondor · 02-11-2007, 03:21 PM

Yeah, that was probably one of the dumbest changes that PJ made. You make a good point about distance, too. From the Silent Street all the way to the end of the high point was probably a distance of about 1/4 mile. All while on fire. I suppose one might use the hardiness of a pure Numenorian as an excuse, but that would be stretching it.

ninja91 · 02-12-2007, 06:21 AM

If Boromir can kill 10 orcs with 3 arrows stuck in his chest, then why cant Denethor run a half mile completely engulfed in flames?

Sir Kohran · 02-12-2007, 10:03 AM

Also, remember that it was only his robes that were on fire to begin with.

And PJ admits it's a rather implausible ending for him but that the final image is a powerful one (I would agree with that).

MatthewM · 02-12-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja91

If Boromir can kill 10 orcs with 3 arrows stuck in his chest, then why cant Denethor run a half mile completely engulfed in flames?

'Cause Boromir is the man. Enough said! Denethor's a great guy too...but hey, it just doesn't seem possible that a man can run so far fully ablaze.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Also, remember that it was only his robes that were on fire to begin with.

And PJ admits it's a rather implausible ending for him but that the final image is a powerful one (I would agree with that).

I gotta disagree. If you're wearing a robe, and it gets set ablaze, you're going to burn with it. It's not like the flames say "oh let's just chill on this guy's robe"

Everyone see's the scene differently, but for me it was just wasn't necessary. To be honest, since PJ kind of made Denethor some what of a "bad guy", when I first saw the scene in theatres I thought he put it there for comic relief. Now THAT's bad!

Celegost · 03-14-2007, 01:41 PM

He ran from the fifth level.....all the way up to the seventh level....on fire

what the............?

Celegost · 03-14-2007, 01:48 PM

He's wearing a full chainmail hauberk so maybe that offered some protection

radagastly · 03-14-2007, 05:58 PM

Denethor's accuracy seems even less plausible to me than the distance. I suspect if you were engulfed in flame, even if you kept your wits about (an unlikely prospect, even for a "pure Numenorean,") you would simply find it hard to see through the flames and smoke. And that's assuming that your eyes were not yet damaged from the heat, cooked through or whatever. And yet Denethor manages to make his way across the courtyard, avoiding the tinder-dry White Tree, not to mention the quenching pool of water over which it hangs, and acheive a perfect launch off the exact prow, like an out-take from "Titanic:"

Quote:

"I'm flying, Jack! I'm f . . aaaaaagh!"
Cue the Canadian singer.

Still, I have to admit that the long shot of him falling into the battle as the Rohirrim gathered on the hilltop was very dramatic.

FeRaL sHaDoW · 03-14-2007, 10:48 PM

funny how none of the gaurds even tried to stop and put him out.

thewichtking · 02-08-2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celegost

He ran from the fifth level.....all the way up to the seventh level....on fire

what the............?

HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA !HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!

then another 1/4 of a mile to the end of the thing to jump off

. good point.

narfforc · 02-09-2009, 01:16 PM

Poor old Denethor, he's just found out that he is in a film called The Return of the King. With this Stranger of the North on the throne, there's no need for a Steward, so the film script calls for him to be fired.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-05-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatthewM

'Cause Boromir is the man. Enough said! Denethor's a great guy too...but hey, it just doesn't seem possible that a man can run so far fully ablaze.

Everyone see's the scene differently, but for me it was just wasn't necessary. To be honest, since PJ kind of made Denethor some what of a "bad guy", when I first saw the scene in theatres I thought he put it there for comic relief. Now THAT's bad!

I gotta agree cause Denethor wasn't bad he was just slightly cracked, and wouldn't you be too if you just found out that your favourate son had just died, AND your country is being over taken by the dark lord?

Elmo · 08-05-2007, 01:25 PM

...and you had epic mind contests with the dark lord

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-05-2007, 01:30 PM

Quite right!

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 08-10-2007, 05:18 PM

Oh please! The fiery leap made it 'more interesting for newcomers'? What kind of person would prefer to see something so ridiculous, in a film featuring a world one is trying to immerse oneself in? Why do we have to assume that all newcomers to The Lord of the Rings are fickle and desire lame action scenes over a decent story? A simple, horrifying shot of Denethor being consumed by flame, with the others watching aghast, would have been obviously better.

And the point about Boromir offers nothing: history is filled with thousands, nay, millions! of warriors who fight on, and kill, after suffering wounds. That scene wasn't unrealistic; the Denethor scene is, hopelessly so.

Sauron the White · 09-05-2007, 09:31 AM

Knight of Gondor did an excellent job using stills from the movie to show how this feat was not possible given the realities of the physical anatomy.

I wonder if any readers of the book will take into consideration the physical anatomy in calculating the distance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas ran in the first part of the TWO TOWERS. Having been a long distance runner most of my life - and that represents 30 years and 60,000 miles of running - I know the fuel that powers muscles and what the body is capable of. When JRRT wrote those scenes it seems as if he merely urged the three to will their bodies to run that long distance despite the anatomical inability of an untrained and inexperienced runner to do so. I might buy the idea that Legolas could do it - Elves being different and all. And I would buy the idea that Aragorn would be in good physical shape from years in the wild but that does NOT translate into running. And as for Gimli - that is hopeless.

But there it is in the book - all three run vast distances despite the physical realities.

So lets use the same logical scales and deductive reasoning processes when we criticize things shall we? What is good for the goose - in this case the targeted whipping boy of Peter Jacksons films - is good for the gander - the beloved and cherished Holy Word of JRRT.

Forgive me for being a wise guy but this is the kind of thing that rankles me to no end.

alatar · 09-05-2007, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Knight of Gondor did an excellent job using stills from the movie to show how this feat was not possible given the realities of the physical anatomy.

Not sure to what you are referring.

Quote:

I wonder if any readers of the book will take into consideration the physical anatomy in calculating the distance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas ran in the first part of the TWO TOWERS.

How far did they run? At what average mph did they run? What is the longest/fastest some human ran today? Also, what is the limiting factor in running? Does it have something to do with lactic acid or another waste product? Could lembas and/or a difference in the percentage of atmospheric oxygen help the equation (Isn't the size of insects related to the amount of oxygen available?)?

Surely someone can do the math to save the Master's honor.

Quote:

And as for Gimli - that is hopeless.

Is that why PJ had him rolling most of the time?

MaultheStoor · 02-12-2009, 08:00 AM

I personally think he was wearing asbestos underwear and had began to grow wonky in the head from mesothelioma (but that's just me).

LadyBrooke · 02-27-2009, 07:00 PM

The thing is there are other things resulting from the fire that would have killed Denethor even it the armour and stuff didn’t burn all the way to his skin in the time to run all that way. Today was Career Day at my school, and one of the guys was the a County Prosecutor. I want to be a lawyer, so I found his lecture fascinating (so much that I was actually glad I couldn’t eat lunch at school so I could go listen to him speak again).

The relevant thing to this discussion that he mentioned is that often when he investigates arson murders (and I’m assuming this would apply to guys who got lit on fire) is that often it isn’t the burns or fire itself that kills a person, but the secondary results of fire. The ones that I think would have been the problem would be smoke inhalation and heated air.

If you’re running you need more air, so Denethor would have been consuming a lot of smoke and heated air. While I’m sure we all know what the effects of smoke inhalation are, the thing that would be worse for Denethor would be the heated air. Fire quickly heats up the surrounding air - it only takes seconds - and when you inhale hot air it burns the insides of your throat and lungs along with the air passages. You slowly suffocate to death when you’re just breathing shallowing. What would the outcome be if you’re running while inhaling smoke into scorched lungs while suffering burns - the guy wouldn’t have made it a quarter mile.

And yes, this is probably the posting equivalent of beating a dead horse.

Galadriel · 01-12-2011, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja91

If Boromir can kill 10 orcs with 3 arrows stuck in his chest, then why cant Denethor run a half mile completely engulfed in flames?

Possibly because the flames burned his eyes and roasted his legs?

02-11-2007, 03:21 PM	#1
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	Yeah, that was probably one of the dumbest changes that PJ made. You make a good point about distance, too. From the Silent Street all the way to the end of the high point was probably a distance of about 1/4 mile. All while on fire. I suppose one might use the hardiness of a pure Numenorian as an excuse, but that would be stretching it. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

02-12-2007, 10:03 AM	#3
Sir Kohran Wight Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: England, UK Posts: 178	Also, remember that it was only his robes that were on fire to begin with. And PJ admits it's a rather implausible ending for him but that the final image is a powerful one (I would agree with that). __________________ 'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'

03-14-2007, 10:48 PM	#8
FeRaL sHaDoW Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 232	funny how none of the gaurds even tried to stop and put him out. __________________ God created night, but man created darkness....

02-09-2009, 01:16 PM	#10
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	What King!!!!!!!!! Poor old Denethor, he's just found out that he is in a film called The Return of the King. With this Stranger of the North on the throne, there's no need for a Steward, so the film script calls for him to be fired. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

08-05-2007, 01:25 PM	#12
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	...and you had epic mind contests with the dark lord __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

03-14-2007, 01:41 PM	#5
Celegost Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 23	He ran from the fifth level.....all the way up to the seventh level....on fire what the............?

03-14-2007, 01:48 PM	#6
Celegost Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 23	He's wearing a full chainmail hauberk so maybe that offered some protection

08-05-2007, 01:30 PM	#13
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	Quite right! __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

08-10-2007, 05:18 PM	#14
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Oh please! The fiery leap made it 'more interesting for newcomers'? What kind of person would prefer to see something so ridiculous, in a film featuring a world one is trying to immerse oneself in? Why do we have to assume that all newcomers to The Lord of the Rings are fickle and desire lame action scenes over a decent story? A simple, horrifying shot of Denethor being consumed by flame, with the others watching aghast, would have been obviously better. And the point about Boromir offers nothing: history is filled with thousands, nay, millions! of warriors who fight on, and kill, after suffering wounds. That scene wasn't unrealistic; the Denethor scene is, hopelessly so. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond Last edited by Eomer of the Rohirrim; 08-10-2007 at 05:22 PM. Reason: I had time to kill, because the flames are so slow

09-05-2007, 09:31 AM	#15
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Knight of Gondor did an excellent job using stills from the movie to show how this feat was not possible given the realities of the physical anatomy. I wonder if any readers of the book will take into consideration the physical anatomy in calculating the distance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas ran in the first part of the TWO TOWERS. Having been a long distance runner most of my life - and that represents 30 years and 60,000 miles of running - I know the fuel that powers muscles and what the body is capable of. When JRRT wrote those scenes it seems as if he merely urged the three to will their bodies to run that long distance despite the anatomical inability of an untrained and inexperienced runner to do so. I might buy the idea that Legolas could do it - Elves being different and all. And I would buy the idea that Aragorn would be in good physical shape from years in the wild but that does NOT translate into running. And as for Gimli - that is hopeless. But there it is in the book - all three run vast distances despite the physical realities. So lets use the same logical scales and deductive reasoning processes when we criticize things shall we? What is good for the goose - in this case the targeted whipping boy of Peter Jacksons films - is good for the gander - the beloved and cherished Holy Word of JRRT. Forgive me for being a wise guy but this is the kind of thing that rankles me to no end.

02-12-2009, 08:00 AM	#17
MaultheStoor Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: The cave under the Misty Mountains. Just take a wrong turn in the goblin's tunnels. Posts: 34	I personally think he was wearing asbestos underwear and had began to grow wonky in the head from mesothelioma (but that's just me). __________________ Leave now, and never come back! Gollum, Gollum! See? You made him mad.

02-27-2009, 07:00 PM	#18
LadyBrooke Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: The modern day version of Edoras: horses, wind, rolling plains =) Posts: 507	The thing is there are other things resulting from the fire that would have killed Denethor even it the armour and stuff didn’t burn all the way to his skin in the time to run all that way. Today was Career Day at my school, and one of the guys was the a County Prosecutor. I want to be a lawyer, so I found his lecture fascinating (so much that I was actually glad I couldn’t eat lunch at school so I could go listen to him speak again). The relevant thing to this discussion that he mentioned is that often when he investigates arson murders (and I’m assuming this would apply to guys who got lit on fire) is that often it isn’t the burns or fire itself that kills a person, but the secondary results of fire. The ones that I think would have been the problem would be smoke inhalation and heated air. If you’re running you need more air, so Denethor would have been consuming a lot of smoke and heated air. While I’m sure we all know what the effects of smoke inhalation are, the thing that would be worse for Denethor would be the heated air. Fire quickly heats up the surrounding air - it only takes seconds - and when you inhale hot air it burns the insides of your throat and lungs along with the air passages. You slowly suffocate to death when you’re just breathing shallowing. What would the outcome be if you’re running while inhaling smoke into scorched lungs while suffering burns - the guy wouldn’t have made it a quarter mile. And yes, this is probably the posting equivalent of beating a dead horse. __________________ Busy, Busy, Busy...hoping for more free time soon.